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22 Nov 2010, 18:56 (Ref:2794381) | #26 | |||
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22 Nov 2010, 19:05 (Ref:2794389) | #27 | ||
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23 Nov 2010, 10:40 (Ref:2794637) | #28 | ||
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Ultimately a lead driver is only ever going to be able to win a WDC with the best team of engineers, designers and strategists around him.
As we have seen repeatedly a top driver is limited by the factors above (plus a good development budget to put in place the updates to a car over a year.) Ultimately a good team in the background is more important than a top driver 'leading' the show. We have seen many occassions when this has been proven both ways, where the best car wins with not the best driver at the wheel (ie as we saw with Webber leading the drivers championship for most of the year) and of course where the (alleged at the time) best driver has struggled with a less than best car package.(ie Shumacher /Ferrari in 2005) Lets not forget it is the team (WCC) championship which earns the teams the dollars to go racing, and most teams would prioritise the WCC result. RBR staff for instance had all their bonuses paid on the WCC result, although Vettel received a seperate and additional WDC bonus from the team. RBR earnt nothing in $$$ terms for winning the WDC, although clearly it earnt them the media and TV coverage and brand exposure that keeps the sponsors happy (in the case of this year the team owner was the sponsor of course) and gives those in F1 sponsorship the justification to put their corporate profits on the line. Who was the real winner in 2010? The nost important person at RBR? Well, if you are honest then Adrian Newey and his technical team were. He / they gave the RBR drivers the best equipment and package to do the job, despite other areas of team management and both drivers doing their utmost at times to nullify the advantage he gave them. Without his department RBR would have potentially been a nothing team regardless of the drivers input or demands. Last edited by E.B; 23 Nov 2010 at 10:47. |
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23 Nov 2010, 14:17 (Ref:2794721) | #29 | |||
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What, then, do you think is the right context? |
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23 Nov 2010, 19:25 (Ref:2794836) | #30 | ||
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23 Nov 2010, 19:45 (Ref:2794841) | #31 | ||||
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Good, there was no benefit to the discussion in the pedantic assertion. We all knew what was meant/going on.
I can't wait for these kind of discussions to move on and treat the subject in a mature manner and also to come up with something new and worth discussing. Quote:
For the simplistic context you need to be thinking A1GP, and even then... Quote:
In my opinion, we should not be messing with this team stuff. The sport has always had this. Why fundamentally change (ruin) a sport like this? If you want a simplistic drivers championship then we should start from scratch rather than try to mold something that just isn't like that. Identical cars, drawn from a hat, same set-up. Low tech so that consistency can be achieved. Fine, do it. I can't really think of an analogy, because F1 is different to other sports. However what about the Marathon, this has too much variety, too many hills, altitude changes. That favours some over others, why not hold it on an indoor track always at sea level? It fundamentally changes the sport to achieve something 'fairer' rather than embracing the history and what it has always been. As I say a poor analogy. Cue pedant picking at. However try and see what I am getting at. However it strikes me that several different aspects are getting mixed up here. Team orders, car differences, hatred of some, .... Last edited by Adam43; 23 Nov 2010 at 19:52. |
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23 Nov 2010, 19:46 (Ref:2794843) | #32 | |||
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24 Nov 2010, 03:25 (Ref:2795000) | #33 | ||
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My original comment wasn't aimed at a spec championship at all, but if it is a true WDC then a formula where drivers are fundamentally prevented from real wheel to wheel (close) racing because of inherent problems with car aerodynamics means there is something left to be desired in the present specifications, regardelss of the team orders, team rivalry or constructors / teams championship. Mt todt wants passing. Well if he isn't prepared to deal with one of the primary problems we have in the current specification he might as well be PITW. |
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24 Nov 2010, 06:41 (Ref:2795020) | #34 | ||
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Different eras, different concepts..... Dont forget pre the WCC you had such anomalies as Fangio winning the 1954 WDC with wins driving both Mercedes and Maserati cars, and drivers regularly drove for a different team at stages of a season often dependaant on car availability..
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24 Nov 2010, 15:59 (Ref:2795267) | #35 | |
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Dead Eye,
Interesting points you make, I'm tempted by some of it, but here's some responses. Alonso still not being good enough 'considering the result': I think that is a tad unfair on Fernando. In my eyes no other driver could have done more to pull a car that over the course of the season was rarely the fastest, to the brink of the championship. Winning five GPs in that car is a striking statistic, especially given the Red Bull qualifying record, and the reasonable accusation that a Red Bull driver should have sown the matter up long before Abu Dhabi. The question from my point of view however is whether some of Alonso's achievment was precipitated by a team ultimately geared towards Alonso, right from the start. You've got to say that there are few teams this season who, I theorise, would have swapped the order of their drivers, at a mid-season race, when the second driver was by no means mathematically out of the championship hunt (albeit he was behind). Massa's treatment, and the authority that Massa arguably has over him, smacks of Ferrari's treatment of Barrichello in the Schumacher days. That wasn't really a case of supporting whichever driver was leading the championship after a certain stage, but rather supporting the lead driver right from the off, thereby meaning the second driver never really had a chance to drive to his full extent. Whether it was outright, or subtle psychological, treatment and team gearing, I didn't admire it. And I trust I'm right in saying a healthy amount of other fans agreed. Think the crowd and worldwide reaction at Austria 2002. Massa's treatment at Ferrari is apparently verging into that territory, |
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24 Nov 2010, 16:50 (Ref:2795287) | #36 | |
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Adam43,
I will have a look for corroboration (?), and get back to you. ________________________________ Previous quote from Chicanery: "Massa's treatment, and the authority that Massa arguably has over him." Correction: "Massa's treatment, and the authority that Alonso arguably has over him." |
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24 Nov 2010, 18:47 (Ref:2795327) | #37 | |
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Ferrari knows that one point is worth one point, wether its in the first race of the season or the last. The championship consists of all the races in one season, not just the last four or five races. To think that team orders is bad during the start of the season, but OK towards the end is incredibly hipocritic
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24 Nov 2010, 19:12 (Ref:2795336) | #38 | |||
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25 Nov 2010, 16:58 (Ref:2795707) | #39 | |||
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Alonso'a authority was stamped all over Massa and the team well before Germany and despite Rob Smedleys making the situation obvious to the watching world, he was actually right, Alonso was faster than Massa. Felipe was never going to get himself in a position to challenge for the title (can't see him doing so in future either sadly) whereas Alonso did. Doesn't make it any easier to stomach mind you. With regards to your Schumacher comment. The difference between Austria 2002 and Germany 2010 (i know you didn't actually mention Austria) is that in 2002 Ferrari had a dominant car and Schumacher a 44 point lead (iirc), Germany, Ferrari had a slower car, and had to do something to catch up in the standings. |
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25 Nov 2010, 17:19 (Ref:2795717) | #40 | ||
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I agree with all you said above. My point is, so Ferrari has Massa as only a number two driver, hired to help Alonso. The argument that Alonso is better than Massa is redundant, that he was always better than Massa during the season is default. I won't argue about Germany, as we all did in detail, and the points you're making are not really reason enough for what was made. If people here are trying to justify Ferrari team orders, is absolutely unnecessary.
Give something to discuss about, as I can see nothing here that's worth doing it. If that conversation really existed, is clear to me that Alonso has some authority about strategy but if it happens is another completely different story... the "We are thinking about it, concentrate on Button" part is very enlightening. |
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25 Nov 2010, 19:35 (Ref:2795761) | #41 | ||||
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That is a bit desperate to get back at me. Especially as my original point was about not adding anything to the discussion. I haven't worked out what your point added. I was trying to get away from the playground posting. I asked, not to be a pedant, but was just curious where it came from (as the other user was), so I can have a full read. Maybe we can mature the discussion a little? |
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26 Nov 2010, 07:31 (Ref:2795916) | #42 | |||
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To be fair mate, i don't think that Massa was hired to be number 2 to Alonso. I think that the team felt obligated to him after his accident and gave him the oppotunity for this season. Trouble for Felipe is, he was fairly even with Kimi, if not a little better over the long run, despite Kimi's world title. Alonso may have won his title in 2005, but Kimi seemed not far off him, but this season has shown how much better Fernando is over Kimi and therefore Felipe. Felipe, imo, wasn't hired as Fernando's number 2 but the way this season has gone has now dictated that, same way as, i now belive that Webber will be number 2 to Seb and maybe Button to Hamilton. |
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That's so frickin uncool man! |
26 Nov 2010, 12:32 (Ref:2796038) | #43 | |
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Adam 43, I think the pedant comment was, perhaps fairly, meant for me.
Still haven't got back to you on veracity of radio call, will do when have a mo |
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26 Nov 2010, 16:50 (Ref:2796145) | #44 | ||
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26 Nov 2010, 17:11 (Ref:2796150) | #45 | |
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Or the fact that Alonso wasn't good enough to do what he wanted to!
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26 Nov 2010, 19:37 (Ref:2796194) | #46 | |||||
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The whole subject is not about Teflonso being an authority on strategy or not. And in my opinion, he might have, but how much and how serious the team takes it. Quote:
He hopes that the Pirelli set would be better for him, but I doubt the team would favour him in any aspect. It's the Barrichello/Ferrari story all over again. But maybe, just maybe, we could have a surprise. I doubt that Webber will be second to Vettel, even if the team try to force it... And I don't think there's any chance that McLaren will try to put Button in the same position. This is all good for talking but hardly will happen. |
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27 Nov 2010, 01:42 (Ref:2796272) | #47 | |||
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I don't think that either Red Bull or McLaren will start out the season having a number 1 or 2 driver, but my point was, Massa, as with now, i believe, mentally, Webber and Button are number 2 drivers to their team mates. |
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27 Nov 2010, 07:35 (Ref:2796335) | #48 | |||
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Webber is not as good as Vettel Massa is not as good as Alonso Button is not as good (as a total package) as Hamilton. Button to Hamilton is probably the closest matched of the three teams. Button was and is let down by qualifying, but more evenly matched on racecraft and in my opinion better at driving to a strategy that requires a bit of restraint (ie maximising tyres in not ideal conditions.) Notwithstanding, Hamilton is the quicker albeit less consistent of the pair. Hamilton's weakness is not knowing when to tame the natural aggression. The agression is part of what makes Hamilton as good a driver as he is, but as we have seen he is prone to overdo it and come unstuck when a bit of patience was needed. He also relies on being told what to do much of the time rather than it coming naturally. Often with Lewis we seem to hear 'Now these tyres are shot what shall I do? Button on the other hand is often the one making the decisions for himself often saying when he will be stopping or not stopping. |
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27 Nov 2010, 12:14 (Ref:2796406) | #49 | |||
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Let the season begin ! |
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27 Nov 2010, 15:57 (Ref:2796476) | #50 | ||
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To talk about the original intention of the thread then, from what I've seen Alonso left it in Ferrari's hands and they messed up royally. However where was the Alonso who thinks on his feet and makes decisions for the team in the car? We saw none of that. It was a rather woeful performance. |
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