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Old 12 Aug 2017, 09:58 (Ref:3758959)   #646
S griffin
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S griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
If they continue the reliability they had in Hungary they at least starting to go in the right direction
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Old 12 Aug 2017, 14:50 (Ref:3758981)   #647
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Agreed. But one of McLaren-Honda's problems, as well as the lack of pace and unreliability, has been the gap - well, yawning chasm, really - between their rhetoric and ambition on the one hand and their performance on the other. I keep having to remind myself that there is no immutable law that McLaren will recover and fight at the front, and that BRM, Lotus, Brabham and Tyrrell all won championships before declining and finally going into death spirals.
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Old 13 Aug 2017, 22:47 (Ref:3759217)   #648
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Agreed. But one of McLaren-Honda's problems, as well as the lack of pace and unreliability, has been the gap - well, yawning chasm, really - between their rhetoric and ambition on the one hand and their performance on the other. I keep having to remind myself that there is no immutable law that McLaren will recover and fight at the front, and that BRM, Lotus, Brabham and Tyrrell all won championships before declining and finally going into death spirals.
😲
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Old 14 Aug 2017, 15:28 (Ref:3759354)   #649
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ASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Agreed. But one of McLaren-Honda's problems, as well as the lack of pace and unreliability, has been the gap - well, yawning chasm, really - between their rhetoric and ambition on the one hand and their performance on the other. I keep having to remind myself that there is no immutable law that McLaren will recover and fight at the front, and that BRM, Lotus, Brabham and Tyrrell all won championships before declining and finally going into death spirals.


Good God!
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Old 14 Aug 2017, 20:35 (Ref:3759404)   #650
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ASCII Man, you do realise you've just posted an animated gif. I thought I'd mention it just in case.
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Old 14 Aug 2017, 21:39 (Ref:3759417)   #651
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ASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Yes, I did realize it when I did a search for 'man spitting out drink gif' on Google, but thank you for mentioning it, Adam43.
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Old 14 Aug 2017, 23:25 (Ref:3759431)   #652
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ASCII Man, you do realise you've just posted an animated gif. I thought I'd mention it just in case.
Ban him!! 😂
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Old 15 Aug 2017, 04:15 (Ref:3759448)   #653
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Agreed. But one of McLaren-Honda's problems, as well as the lack of pace and unreliability, has been the gap - well, yawning chasm, really - between their rhetoric and ambition on the one hand and their performance on the other. I keep having to remind myself that there is no immutable law that McLaren will recover and fight at the front, and that BRM, Lotus, Brabham and Tyrrell all won championships before declining and finally going into death spirals.
Ha! Well I do like the idea that future success for anyone is not inevitable. Generally speaking nobody is safe from a future "death spiral" (some are more safe than others). "If" McLaren was to "fail", I suspect it would look different than some of those examples above. I can't remember how the F1 team and commercial enterprise are structured. Likely the commercial side can survive without the F1 team. The F1 team might become something else. But regardless, a very good point to make.

What I think could be more likely for the F1 side of the McLaren house is a Williams style long slow slide into general mediocrity. Williams has had relatively erratic performance over the past 10+ years (with occasional highlights, but not enough to show a positive trend). And I say this is an absolute fan of Williams who would love to see them back on top.

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Old 21 Aug 2017, 15:03 (Ref:3760748)   #654
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knighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridknighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
The only way Williams and McLaren will get back on top is with primary A-grade engine supplies, running a Renault or Merc engine they will only ever get B-grade motors......hence its worth toughing it out with Honda, but I admit, its taken far too long........most of McLarens problems are self inflicted as they pushed honda to package the engine too tight (size zero) in the first place when Honda re-joined F1 3 years ago.

If the Honda deal goes south for McLaren I think they are long over-due making their own engines, the simplified 2021 motors may allow this. McLaren use Ricardo for their road car powertrain R&D and employ a lot of very experienced powertrain engineers for the road-car engine business......they just need to actually realize they can do an F1 engine and make the jump with assistance from Ricardo and Zytek.

Or like I said before, get their old mate Mario Illien (Ilmor) on the case and just pay his bills
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Old 21 Aug 2017, 15:52 (Ref:3760754)   #655
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Someone needs to get GM, PSA or Ford interested in Formula 1.
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Old 21 Aug 2017, 16:14 (Ref:3760757)   #656
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knighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridknighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Someone needs to get GM, PSA or Ford interested in Formula 1.
that will never happen, the real automotive money these days is in china, trust me I work in the powertrain R&D industry for a living, someone like Geely, PATAK, Chery, Great-Wall and so on.......they have money coming out of their ears, but nobody has ever heard of them, so they could do with the F1 exposure........hence buddying up with McLaren for an F1 engine done by Ilmor is easy for all parties involved.
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Old 21 Aug 2017, 16:31 (Ref:3760758)   #657
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The only way Williams and McLaren will get back on top is with primary A-grade engine supplies, running a Renault or Merc engine they will only ever get B-grade motors......
was Williams getting b grade versions of the Renault PUs in 2012 & 2013 though? RB won those years and Williams were also pretty fairly trounced by a severely underfunded Lotus- Renault team as well.

and now with Merc power they still tended to get out classed by Force India (and i cant imagine that FI have a more favourable engine deal/upgrade schedule then Williams do).

anyways it's not that i disagree, but rather i think the bigger issue is budget size followed by how they spend their money.

even with access to the best engine, Williams, certainly, would struggle financially to maintain the development pace necessary to be competitive at the sharp end over an entire season.

plus these are large corporations now and no doubt subject to sprawling costs stemming from building up and supporting other departments/projects...something Force India by contrast doesnt have to deal with.

sad to say, but Williams and Mclaren are not the lean and mean racing enterprises they once were.

sort of an unrelated point, but i think FI is one of the most efficient teams in terms of points per dollar spent...i think if that team can get access to a new owner/full manu backing i could see them jumping to the sharp end more quickly then Williams or Mclaren getting back up there.
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Old 21 Aug 2017, 17:34 (Ref:3760764)   #658
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was Williams getting b grade versions of the Renault PUs in 2012 & 2013 though? RB won those years and Williams were also pretty fairly trounced by a severely underfunded Lotus- Renault team as well.

and now with Merc power they still tended to get out classed by Force India (and i cant imagine that FI have a more favourable engine deal/upgrade schedule then Williams do).

anyways it's not that i disagree, but rather i think the bigger issue is budget size followed by how they spend their money.

even with access to the best engine, Williams, certainly, would struggle financially to maintain the development pace necessary to be competitive at the sharp end over an entire season.

plus these are large corporations now and no doubt subject to sprawling costs stemming from building up and supporting other departments/projects...something Force India by contrast doesnt have to deal with.

sad to say, but Williams and Mclaren are not the lean and mean racing enterprises they once were.

sort of an unrelated point, but i think FI is one of the most efficient teams in terms of points per dollar spent...i think if that team can get access to a new owner/full manu backing i could see them jumping to the sharp end more quickly then Williams or Mclaren getting back up there.
Williams throw a lot of bits at the car but they have bit of a history of not always working, something that Paddy Lowe is addressing. They also have consistently produced cars that are not effective on some circuits, I know that Williams are focused on their lack of budget compared to Ferrari and Red Bull, but I doubt that FI have a bigger budget than Williams, and probably quite a lot less, they seem leaner and keener and with a better driver line up. Perhaps Williams is held back by keeping a big team mentality on small team budgets? And I speak as a long time Williams fan and follower!
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Old 22 Aug 2017, 01:49 (Ref:3760837)   #659
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Williams throw a lot of bits at the car but they have bit of a history of not always working, something that Paddy Lowe is addressing. They also have consistently produced cars that are not effective on some circuits, I know that Williams are focused on their lack of budget compared to Ferrari and Red Bull, but I doubt that FI have a bigger budget than Williams, and probably quite a lot less, they seem leaner and keener and with a better driver line up. Perhaps Williams is held back by keeping a big team mentality on small team budgets? And I speak as a long time Williams fan and follower!
I think that Paddy Lowe is a great get for Williams, now the test will be to see if they listen to him and give him the authority to carry out the changes he wants. Paddy is absolutely the X factor that Williams need to be competitive again, will they take the opportunity or fire him?

I agree FI are something special, their consistent results are very very impressive. Year in year out they punch well above their weight.

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Old 22 Aug 2017, 10:40 (Ref:3760906)   #660
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S griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I agree, Williams did well in getting Paddy
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