Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising Live Chat  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 6 Aug 2017, 17:24 (Ref:3757738)   #76
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 2,263
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
This thread is fully off topic, but I will roll with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
The FIA allowed the engineers to spend a lot of time engineering the "Schumacher" factor out of F1 by reducing the front end grip of the cars so they become understeer limited and less "prone" to driver input.

The rules now set axle weights to ensure the same basic handling fault.
If a driver enters a corner over the limit, the car will basically just plough off speed and the driver can collect it up again and try to get it right. This is how the cars are dumbed down. If everything is on the limit it all tends to let go at the same time and tear up the scenery, no recovery.
It's unfortunate that the weight balance is so strictly controlled. But doubt it has anything to do with engineering out specific driving styles. I am sure cars can be setup to be "loose" at the rear and very "pointy" on the front end if so wished. I suspect we see more under steer conditions on track these days due to the front loosing aero grip while trying to follow another car closely. I suspect the tight regulations is all about predictability for the design of the spec tires. If you know the total weight and balance within a handful of kilograms, then it makes it easier to engineer the tire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Currently they are basically nursing the front of the car around the corner, and conserving fuel and tyres, hence your race lap times are about 5 seconds or more off the pole time, essentially just touring around within the prescribed parameters.
That I can agree with. It is a sad situation from that perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
As far as the simulators being advanced play station, I would love to see the driver who learned the old Nurburgring on a simulator post a top time, the modern tracks have had all the bumps, camber changes and surface changes taken out of them, "dumbed down" so that there are less variables to put into the simulator!
I am not sure how smoother tracks fit into the conversation about simulators. Other than it makes it easier to simulate. The tracks gravitate toward smooth surfaces regardless of simulation technology. Granted, it does make it easier to drive on if they are that smooth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
P.S. I do agree driving one of these cars to the possibilities of its performance with limited testing and only "PlayStation" time must be very challenging and difficult. I have no idea what it must feel like trusting a simulator limit on a track is like when you haven't felt what the actual car does on a particular circuit/corner.
It would be interesting to have more visibility into questions like that. I suspect that part of this is that it likely allows a particular skill set to bubble to the top. Those we have existing experience in lower formulas, but who are also able to perform well in the simulators. If they are able to do both well, and the simulators are as accurate as they can be, then maybe that is part of the explanation of relatively smooth transitions into F1 for the "simulator generation". Others might potentially do well in F1, but don't do well in the simulator and just never make it to F1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Mallett View Post
Agreed although I'd still like to see it. My point is ( I may continue flogging this dead horse) that there is just not enough difference between the various formulae thus a rookie can be on the pace immediately. And that IMHO is plain wrong.
I am also flogging a dead horse here in that I think you are really missing a large fact. They are not just "on the pace immediately". What they ARE is turning lap times that are close enough to those at the front that decades ago would have fit the definition of "on the pace". Today, "on the pace" is a much smaller window.

(Note, I say this without having crunched the numbers. It would be interesting to see some true statistical analysis. My argument supposes that the bell curve that will define the general range of performance for a set of drivers will be much narrower than it has been in the past. That the time delta, or better said, the percentage off the best time between the best and the average is decreasing over time. Or for the math geeks, I suspect the standard deviation is trending smaller.)

Anyhow... Ultimately only one can be the winner. And we are not seeing a slew of rookies winning races. Or if someone is young and does stand out (i.e. Max), it is likely that person actually has exceptional skill. Granted, in F1 the entire package matters (chassis, engine, crew, etc.) and that is a big factor in this current turbo era. But in identical cars you are going to see an even distribution of results between experienced and rookie drivers? Take Mercedes for example. Drop the average young rookie into that car and do you think Hamilton is going to win 50% of the time? Absolutely not. It's highly likely Hamilton would crush that rookie teammate over the course of a season. The same goes for a handful of other top level drivers. To me this is a fact. And give this fact... these rookies can't be "on the pace". But if your definition of "on the pace" means that they are somewhere close, but not fighting for wins, then yes they are on the pace.

Richard

Last edited by Richard Casto; 6 Aug 2017 at 17:29.
Richard Casto is online now  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 6 Aug 2017, 17:38 (Ref:3757741)   #77
Akrapovic
Veteran
 
Akrapovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Scotland
Posts: 4,727
Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!
Arguably the gap between F2 and F1 is larger than it has been in a LONG time due to the massive power difference. About 400hp difference, and a completely different type of power delivery. There have been times (in the glorious 60s for example), than the gap between F2 and F1 was smaller, but nobody would dare use that as a reason to say it was too easy.
Akrapovic is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Aug 2017, 10:02 (Ref:3757957)   #78
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,989
S griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
For the past few seasons the GP2 champion has either missed out on F1 or had to spend a season on the sidelines before coming to F1 a la Palmer and Vandoorne. So there is definitely something not right there, hopefully F2 will fix it soon
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 7 Aug 2017, 14:39 (Ref:3757984)   #79
BSchneiderFan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
United Kingdom
London, UK
Posts: 5,183
BSchneiderFan has a real shot at the podium!BSchneiderFan has a real shot at the podium!BSchneiderFan has a real shot at the podium!BSchneiderFan has a real shot at the podium!
Here's a possibly mad idea that's just occurred to me: the WCC is contractually obliged to run a third car for the reigning F2 champion.
BSchneiderFan is online now  
Quote
Old 7 Aug 2017, 16:01 (Ref:3757998)   #80
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 2,263
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan View Post
Here's a possibly mad idea that's just occurred to me: the WCC is contractually obliged to run a third car for the reigning F2 champion.
First thing that comes to mind is... who funds it? And if you say the teams, why would they agree to do that. Second is could it score points. If not, would that car be used to disrupt other drivers, etc.

How about third cars for Saturday race (after qualifying, but not a full GP distance, no required pit stops to change tires). One car per team, restrictions on drivers (i.e. no drivers with substantial F1 experience). Drivers may have something similar to a superlicense, but with slightly relaxed experience requirements (to help facilitate new drivers who don't have the required mileage). Separate championship for this Saturday series (i.e. this does not impact regular F1 series). For struggling teams, they may fill the grid with pay drivers (ala Stroll), while top tier teams can use this to test out those who are making it more on talent than budget. Find some way to bring in guest drivers from other series for the entertainment factor. Potential less restrictions on power unit allocations (allow development engines).

I just made that up on the fly. It may be full of holes. Clearly it adds cost which is the biggest issue.

Richard
Richard Casto is online now  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 10 Aug 2017, 00:34 (Ref:3758510)   #81
GTRMagic
Race Official
1% Club
 
GTRMagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Australia
Sell me this pen....
Posts: 42,553
GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
For the past few seasons the GP2 champion has either missed out on F1 or had to spend a season on the sidelines before coming to F1 a la Palmer and Vandoorne. So there is definitely something not right there, hopefully F2 will fix it soon
It is not F1's job to look after the careers of junior racing drivers is it?
Morally/economically it might be, but mandating an automatic progression doesn't seem logical.
A prize might be a full house test in a current F1 car somewhere, to get a flavour for the pilot... a race seat has far more financial implications than that.
GTRMagic is offline  
__________________
C.D. Bales (Roxanne): "Are we having fun yet?"
Harvey Specter: Anyone can do my job, but no one can be me.
Anyone can be a lost Picasso....
Quote
Old 10 Aug 2017, 01:10 (Ref:3758513)   #82
broadrun96
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
United States
Posts: 3,460
broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTRMagic View Post
It is not F1's job to look after the careers of junior racing drivers is it?
Morally/economically it might be, but mandating an automatic progression doesn't seem logical.
A prize might be a full house test in a current F1 car somewhere, to get a flavour for the pilot... a race seat has far more financial implications than that.
Think that's a better solution, although determining how you work out where the champ tests is tough as most have their backers. You couldn't have a rotation of teams since what happens if a MB driver is champ but Ferrari is the team? And the chance of successive champs being from the same team is probably slim. But FOM offering the cash and importantly extra slot for that driver to test regardless of team could be a plus for evaluation and building interest in more than just their top series.
broadrun96 is online now  
__________________
It was fun while it lasted, have enjoyed the people I've met but the measuring contests and arguments over who's more insider and who's smarter has just made it not worth the effort any longer. It should be fun, not work and it's just work to find actual information.
Quote
Old 10 Aug 2017, 01:13 (Ref:3758514)   #83
GTRMagic
Race Official
1% Club
 
GTRMagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Australia
Sell me this pen....
Posts: 42,553
GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by broadrun96 View Post
Think that's a better solution, although determining how you work out where the champ tests is tough as most have their backers. You couldn't have a rotation of teams since what happens if a MB driver is champ but Ferrari is the team? And the chance of successive champs being from the same team is probably slim. But FOM offering the cash and importantly extra slot for that driver to test regardless of team could be a plus for evaluation and building interest in more than just their top series.
The team that gets to test the pilot can run an all-white car...
GTRMagic is offline  
__________________
C.D. Bales (Roxanne): "Are we having fun yet?"
Harvey Specter: Anyone can do my job, but no one can be me.
Anyone can be a lost Picasso....
Quote
Old 10 Aug 2017, 11:31 (Ref:3758592)   #84
broadrun96
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
United States
Posts: 3,460
broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTRMagic View Post
The team that gets to test the pilot can run an all-white car...
But would Ferrari want an MB/RB driver learning from the inside how the car works? It's not as much the cash backing as the inside knowledge of the current car. I know the teams can pretty much get a majority of the information from trackside observation, but those little details and how things work could be useful, with the right driver of course.
broadrun96 is online now  
__________________
It was fun while it lasted, have enjoyed the people I've met but the measuring contests and arguments over who's more insider and who's smarter has just made it not worth the effort any longer. It should be fun, not work and it's just work to find actual information.
Quote
Old 10 Aug 2017, 11:56 (Ref:3758603)   #85
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,989
S griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTRMagic View Post
It is not F1's job to look after the careers of junior racing drivers is it?
Morally/economically it might be, but mandating an automatic progression doesn't seem logical.
A prize might be a full house test in a current F1 car somewhere, to get a flavour for the pilot... a race seat has far more financial implications than that.
I never said F1 should, just that F2 should hopefully fix the problem of the champions being left on the sidelines the season after winning the title
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 12 Aug 2017, 13:54 (Ref:3758982)   #86
BSchneiderFan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
United Kingdom
London, UK
Posts: 5,183
BSchneiderFan has a real shot at the podium!BSchneiderFan has a real shot at the podium!BSchneiderFan has a real shot at the podium!BSchneiderFan has a real shot at the podium!
I hope Leclerc gets a race seat next year so that Formula 2 gets off to a good start. Palmer, Vandoorne and Gasly all having to go elsewhere was not a good pattern for the FIA's official feeder series.
BSchneiderFan is online now  
Quote
Old 13 Aug 2017, 06:20 (Ref:3759101)   #87
mceci1
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Australia
Posts: 575
mceci1 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by peebee2 View Post
Be surprised if they pay 8m to replace a driver who brings sponsorship.

With Sainz you'd get an OK driver, who is nowhere near as good as only he and his Dad think, who has a petulant attitude - and you'd get the Dad too.

But then again Abiteboul has a serious habit of making stupid decisions
Or they could get Verstappen, who in your words is an ok driver. He hasn't put the wins on like everyone said he would. Give it time, Sainz has a load of potential. And where do you get this theory that Carlos' father is mouthing off, I've never heard a thing from him. I hear a lot from Jos
mceci1 is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Aug 2017, 08:11 (Ref:3759114)   #88
peebee2
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 615
peebee2 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpeebee2 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by mceci1 View Post
Or they could get Verstappen, who in your words is an ok driver. He hasn't put the wins on like everyone said he would. Give it time, Sainz has a load of potential. And where do you get this theory that Carlos' father is mouthing off, I've never heard a thing from him. I hear a lot from Jos
Lol, from in the paddock.

(And comparing MV with CS really cannot be serious comment)
peebee2 is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Aug 2017, 09:27 (Ref:3759119)   #89
mceci1
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Australia
Posts: 575
mceci1 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by peebee2 View Post
Lol, from in the paddock.

(And comparing MV with CS really cannot be serious comment)
Comparing two talented drivers with two poor performing cars cant be a serious comparison. I have heard not a note from Carlos Snr. either
mceci1 is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Aug 2017, 10:18 (Ref:3759124)   #90
peebee2
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 615
peebee2 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpeebee2 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
How many thousand miles is your armchair from the paddock?
peebee2 is offline  
Quote
Reply

Bookmarks




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sainz Willing to take Pay Cut. Speeddemon555 Rallying & Rallycross 4 5 Sep 2002 08:14
Will Sainz win again? AndyF Rallying & Rallycross 2 18 Mar 2002 16:07
Sainz totals Focus on first test day KC Rallying & Rallycross 3 31 Jan 2002 10:53
Sainz crashes into spectators on SS11 Hobson Rallying & Rallycross 28 1 Dec 2001 00:15
Sainz excluded from Rally Australia and championship KC Rallying & Rallycross 10 16 Nov 2000 11:46


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 22:26.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2016 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.