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Old 25 Jul 2017, 08:42 (Ref:3754189)   #1
Simon Hadfield
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Simon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSimon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Health and Safety

This is really a "What does the team think?" thread.
At Donington last Sunday a competitor lost a wheel right in front of one of our cars, leaving James with the immediate choice of T-boning chappie or sticking his car in the tyre wall. Having chosen the rubber girded haven of the tyres he got out of his car to find it significantly damaged - chassis, front and rear uprights, rack, bodywork etc and chappie just stranded on the kerb less one wheel.
Having rather firmly questioned the other guy's intellectual prowess and his parentage status amongst other comments, James had to stand there and watch the rest of the race.
After the race the charmless, wheelless nerk did not even have the grace to come over and either commiserate or apologise, but apparently just put a new wheel on, loaded up and disappeared.
Now the point of telling this story is that as the dust settled we were told that this is not the first time that this competitor in this car has lost a wheel. As we head off down to Silverstone for this weekends beano where we have a bundle of Heath and Safety notes to even be allowed to enter the event, should not the relevant authorities be rather more concerned about competitors health and safety by ensuring that silly little issues like wheels staying on cars is of rather more importance?
This guy will in all likelihood turn up at the next event and there is no way of knowing if his car is now "fit for purpose". Is it time that in Historic racing - even in most Club racing - that there is a log book system whereby cars previous accidents and faults are noted and then those issues can be highlighted and a proper set of controls initiated to ensure that the racing environment is as well checked as that in the paddock?
Or are the priorities correct?

Last edited by Simon Hadfield; 25 Jul 2017 at 08:48.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 09:01 (Ref:3754191)   #2
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Paul D should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridPaul D should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Sounds like serious muppetry to me if he has form for the same thing previously! Of course, none of us is perfect, and we can probably all recall moments when we've made silly mistakes - bonnet pins left out, forgot to check tyre pressures, didn't add enough fuel, etc, etc. But, most of us learn from those incidents and vow not to make the same mistake again - not to do so suggests either carelessness, or worse...

The problem comes when we try to legislate for such people. In these situations, I always think of the old adage: if you think you've made something idiot-proof, someone will just come along with a bigger idiot!
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 09:34 (Ref:3754196)   #3
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The Fat Clerk should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
A chat to the Scrutineers might be an idea.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 09:35 (Ref:3754198)   #4
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delta should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddelta should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddelta should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I have been saying for some time that a log book system would work very well . Not only for safety but also cut down waiting time in scrutineering. But then hey who listens to me 🙄
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 10:31 (Ref:3754204)   #5
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It used to amaze/amuse me both in my own Mini Se7en racing days and later working in the BTCC when part of the scrutineering process involved trying to rock the wheels and at the same time check the wheel nuts were at least finger tight! Especially as generally the cars were presented with different tyres fitted than they were even going to practice on!
Having said that, to have something like a wheel come loose once is pretty foolish, but for it to happen more than once is downright careless.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 11:02 (Ref:3754207)   #6
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I think some kind of log book system for the car is the way to go.

However, what can we do about the ungracious types that cause havoc and then just walk away? Similar thing happened to me when testing at Mallory a few years ago. Bloke had just 'traded up' from a road spec Midget to a full-on mod sport version with slicks and racing brakes. Didn't get himself or car warmed up and ended up using the back of my car to stop himself. Cost me many and a several missed races. Did the same as Simon's miscreant - no attempt to apologise or even explain.

Maybe there should be a section in the log book covering the driver?
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 17:12 (Ref:3754303)   #7
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There is already an MSA 'Competition Car Log Book' that is used for speed events and rallying, but I'm not sure if it is more of an identity document rather than a scrutineering / accident / incident recording one?

Some country's governing bodies use a log book system and I think it is a great way to keep a record of a car's history. Would be happy to see it adopted for circuit racing in the UK!
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 19:46 (Ref:3754368)   #8
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Ohhh Mike can't you just see the complaints on here..."more beaureaucracy" "just another tax on entering."

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Old 26 Jul 2017, 07:20 (Ref:3754438)   #9
Simon Hadfield
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Simon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSimon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Ah, playing the bureaucracy card this early! Well, in some organisations in the US that have the log book system they can - at their first meeting - scrutineer for the entire season. Yes, one scrutineering for the whole year. As shown at the weekend the accepted UK concept can hardly be called fit for purpose if wheels fall off mid race.......
So the logbook system, if used to its full effect, allows a reduction in time spent queuing and waiting, allows greater effective scrutiny of a cars racing life and the stresses that have been put upon it, allows weaknesses to be identified and corrected, allows effective, ongoing, real time notification of other owners of similar cars of such problem areas, allows far more effective use of scrutineers to actively police regulatory compliance while out and about in the paddock, what's not to like?
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Old 26 Jul 2017, 07:40 (Ref:3754440)   #10
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I have been saying for some time that a log book system would work very well . Not only for safety but also cut down waiting time in scrutineering. But then hey who listens to me ��
No one Iain, no one far too busy making sure the ugthumbgrommet is as per 1965 design and manufacture and meets the FIA data base to worry about wheels falling off.
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Old 26 Jul 2017, 07:42 (Ref:3754441)   #11
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You know me Simon, Devil's Advocate. I bet in the US a log book costs virtually nothing, in the UK it would have to be on FIA approved paper with an official ink you can only buy from the MSA, and you would lose your hard-earned win if you had a non-homologated comma.

I've thought for a long time that scrutineering isn't fit for purpose. We scrutineer on a Saturday night and by the time the kart hits the track the next morning it carries different wheels, bodywork and engine that haven't been "checked". What's the point? There's more attention paid to post-race eligibility scrutineering including paperwork than safety.

I don't think though that your idea would eradicate stupidity or metal fatigue, depending on what happened here. Indeed it may promote laziness and inattention. There just isn't the man power available - so I hand my log book in and it says "wheel fell off". What do you do? Send a scrutineer with a torque wrench to check before it goes out?

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Old 26 Jul 2017, 07:56 (Ref:3754442)   #12
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You know me Simon, Devil's Advocate. I bet in the US a log book costs virtually nothing, in the UK it would have to be on FIA approved paper with an official ink you can only buy from the MSA, and you would lose your hard-earned win if you had a non-homologated comma.

I've thought for a long time that scrutineering isn't fit for purpose. We scrutineer on a Saturday night and by the time the kart hits the track the next morning it carries different wheels, bodywork and engine that haven't been "checked". What's the point? There's more attention paid to post-race eligibility scrutineering including paperwork than safety.

I don't think though that your idea would eradicate stupidity or metal fatigue, depending on what happened here. Indeed it may promote laziness and inattention. There just isn't the man power available - so I hand my log book in and it says "wheel fell off". What do you do? Send a scrutineer with a torque wrench to check before it goes out?

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Then the stud would shear..... remember the F1 team who made the angle on the wheel nut exactly the same as the angle in the wheel, 3 fell off before the thought powers were restored.
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Old 26 Jul 2017, 08:12 (Ref:3754444)   #13
Simon Hadfield
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Simon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSimon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The concept, Max, would be at the next race the scrutineers, when handed the logbook would ask to see the receipt for the replacement hub, would ask to see what steps had been taken - modified hub, better material, different supplier, different installation procedures possibly - and that would be recorded on the logbook. As there are no wasteful queues and waiting the scrutineers would have the time to be proactive like this. Also at the same time, as I mentioned, all the other owners of cars with similar components could be updated and informed as to likely problems. If we really value safety rather than just ticking health and safety boxes then surely this is a worthwhile train of thought?
A logbook would also (although obviously not recording testing etc) give a much better idea of seat, seatbelt and bagtank usage - then we would have real time information as to when things wear out, we would not have to be under some lowest common denominator blanket constriction as we are now.
Further, if someone is found to be "pushing the envelope" of technical development then other similar cars can be informed (and checked) and the spread of regulatory inconsistencies can be stopped far quicker.

But then some ten years ago on this very forum I said that the "arms race" in Historic racing was out of control and needed better control.....how very right I was....
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Old 26 Jul 2017, 10:52 (Ref:3754465)   #14
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Well, the way things are going I suspect ICE based motorsport will be disappeared from most of Europe in the next couple of decades and so no one will be putting too much effort into changing things now.

If the whole thing moves to the USA (for example) or Australia/NZ if they don't lose their heads, then presumably the localised UK problem will be bypassed.

Maybe the Middle East will provide other options too? Do they have any car history tracking systems in place?
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Old 26 Jul 2017, 11:48 (Ref:3754473)   #15
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Thank you for explaining your idea in detail Simon that makes a great deal of sense. Although implementation would still require man power that isn't available. And in your example "wheel fell off" could be hub damage, wheel damage, fat finger syndrome or many other things so how do you prove the problem has been addressed?

Grant I think actually the opposite will happen - ICE motorsport in its widest sense will grow as EV make their mark. It will be the only place one can drive fast and free from speed regulation. The lack of effort from the powers-that-be stems more from their inertia and lack of understanding of real world problems than any "it'll all be dead soon" thoughts.

To my mind the MSA hasn't progressed from the 1920s, but that's another discussion!

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