Marshal Killed in Accident at Canadian GP - Discussion of Issues

[gachjoel]

as a jcb/manitou is used in snatches, why is there the need to hold the car as long as the boom is out enough it won't hit the snatch ?
can a rope or some kind of attachment be attached to the snatch vehicle to stop the car turning.
Personally i think the only time you should be holding a suspended car is when going through a tight gap (H&S from work habit)

[TrueBlueFlyer]

I'm really happy to see discussion about training. This is one thing that's not so prevalent in North America. I for one would love to see it happen more often because on the job training cannot really be relied on. You'll only learn how to do something on the job if you actually have an incident occur. Not every station gets an incident to handle at each event.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by gachjoel

as a jcb/manitou is used in snatches, why is there the need to hold the car as long as the boom is out enough it won't hit the snatch ?
can a rope or some kind of attachment be attached to the snatch vehicle to stop the car turning.
Personally i think the only time you should be holding a suspended car is when going through a tight gap (H&S from work habit)

One problem with cars is the lifting point usuall does not coinside with the C og G and needs to be balanced, also a person controlling the car will prevent it rotating or bouncing causing further damage. However short ropes with a marshal at each corner of the car should help to control a car during a suspended tow if you have sufficent people.

[RCMADD]

out of curiosity.. how many actually are snatch marshals?

ill start....

ME

[yellowspanner]

I have to say this is something that will be added to my I/o brief. I know that the snatch drivers at Brands always remind you of their blind spots.

[Apple]

I know that if you ask the snatch drivers at Brands Hatch they will talk you though the equipment and what they need you to do.
They are very helpful there.

[Robin_D]

I've worked live snatches with JCB's and Fire Tenders for 10 years, and I beleive there is always something to learn. Same with all marshalling, we need to be less complacent and ready listen and learn.

I would also say that you usually only need the minimum personnel there. I would say, 1 snatch marshal and 1 lookout, be that the IO or other. Usually you can stabilise the car (if lifted) and turn it using 1 marshal.

[Richard Duvall]

Originally Posted by RCMADD

out of curiosity.. how many actually are snatch marshals?

ill start....

ME

I wasn't aware that there was any specific breed as such. The usual thing I find is that the PC asks if anyone on post has experience of working with a snatch vehicle, most often not! Perhaps there is a case to allocate a snatch experienced marshal to each snatch vehicle? My last time out at Brands all of us on post (only 4 + PC including me on flags) listened to the snatch driver's breifing, which was very helpful. I think all the incident marshals has a go at working with the snatch that weekend.

[Greem]

The above comment stems from the fact that Donington ES Team have held specific training sessions for snatch operators each year (I don't know for how long though) - particularly this year as the circuit has switched from tractors to telehandlers. Specific attention is paid to the many variations in car designs & failure modes - single seaters, for example, have very different towing and lifting characteristics to historic V8 saloons. They also have different ways to get it wrong!

I read a decent article earlier which suggested something we're all familar with - that end-of-event drop in attention (or adrenalin). We should all keep our attention up until we're home, especially at the end of a long and tiring event. It's very easy to stop concentrating when the event is over, more so when the obvious danger of fast-moving cars has gone away - not that I'm suggesting the event that sparked this conversation was anything other than dreadful bad luck.

[RCMADD]

at donington we have recently started using the manitu.. and have snatch trained marshals covering a wide area.. the reason is because we can no longer ride on the vehicles...
when we used the jcb/tractors i used to walk down to the post and inform the io what was required.

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

One problem with cars is the lifting point usuall does not coinside with the C og G and needs to be balanced, also a person controlling the car will prevent it rotating or bouncing causing further damage. However short ropes with a marshal at each corner of the car should help to control a car during a suspended tow if you have sufficent people.

as the c of g is an issue, is that important that the car is horizontal.
mentioned about an attachment to help the rotation.
but would help keeping it fairly horizontal.
if you have marshals trying to stabilize it, they are in the open.
was looking at an option of keeping marshals either out of the way or covered by the snatch vehicle

[safetysam]

The use of telescopic material handlers like those used as snatch vehicles is common in the construction industry. Where a load is being suspended from the machine (they are more commonly used with fork lift attachements) it would be common practice to attach guy ropes to the load to control its movement from a safe distance.
The problem of poor driver visability is also well known and a suitable number of visibility aids (mirrors/ cameras) would be fitted to help with this issue. However, below 1m in height and within about 1m from the machine visibility is virtually nil.
From the press reports human nature (the reaction to pick something you drop up) was probably the direct cause of this tragedy.

The solution in my opinion is a combination of
a) use of guy ropes or other devices to keep people out of the danger zone;
b) (although not apparently relevant to this incident) have designated banksman to control the movement of the vehicle, ensuring all persons are clear before moving; and
c) reducing the risk from radios falling by use of headsets/ fist mikes etc.

Regrettably, in my work life I know of two similar tragedies where men dropped something close to a machine and stepped into its path killing them.

[RCMADD]

the radios used at donington for snatch crews do have headsets with mic.... to speak you have to press a button on the headset..

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by RCMADD

the radios used at donington for snatch crews do have headsets with mic.... to speak you have to press a button on the headset..

I have done snatching at Brands Hatch and, IMO, the last thing I would want is a headset on, as I would usually be stood in a gravel trap and would want to hear everything that is going on around me, especially whistles and on coming vehicles. I would hope that any communication regarding the snatch would be done by the I/O or P/C who were standing back, getting an overview.

[Peter Scillitoe]

Originally Posted by White flag man

I have done snatching at Brands Hatch and, IMO, the last thing I would want is a headset on, as I would usually be stood in a gravel trap and would want to hear everything that is going on around me, especially whistles and on coming vehicles. I would hope that any communication regarding the snatch would be done by the I/O or P/C who were standing back, getting an overview.

Common sense as usual from White flag man.

[Robin_D]

Or standing right behind you ready to help haul you out of the way.

[RCMADD]

orders to "remove that car" come from race control, not the pc or io

so we wear headsets.... like this..


so we can hear whats going on around us...... and whilst tracside.. our eyes are the io

[Robin_D]

Hmmmmmm. We'll agree to disagree on that. Not too sure how your eyes can be the IO. I would rather pay attention to what I'm doing and have someone constantly watching my back. But then we all have different ways of doing things.

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by Robin_D

Hmmmmmm. We'll agree to disagree on that. Not too sure how your eyes can be the IO. I would rather pay attention to what I'm doing and have someone constantly watching my back. But then we all have different ways of doing things.

Also, at other circuits, the instruction to "remove that car" would come from RC to the PC, or IO at Silverstone, and then come from the PC/IO to the marshals. There is no need for individual marshals to where headsets.
Is the Donnington system different? It would be useful to know for future visits.

[yellowspanner]

So to distill this thread it is a reminder to look after yourself, then look after your mate then anybody / anything else ?

[Robin_D]

Yep pretty much! But more of a safety is paramount and don't be complacent.

[TrueBlueFlyer]

Originally Posted by yellowspanner

So to distill this thread it is a reminder to look after yourself, then look after your mate then anybody / anything else ?

isn't that always the case?

you're ultimately responsible for yourself first, then worry about others?