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Old 13 Sep 2017, 15:08 (Ref:3766559)   #76
Peter Mallett
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As with all things there are more facets to this than an uncut diamond.

If we were to consider the whole thing as a sport then as long as the regs are implemented, who cares how many engines or gearboxes a team uses in a weekend? The trouble comes due to the manufacturers. If it costs a zillion dollars to lose an engine, the manufacturer doesn't care, he just pulls another off the line. A team like Williams however, will feel every financial pinch, thus a failed engine means more than just a penalty it means big bucks.

It's a problem with the make up of the sport as a whole. Accepting that technology is important it does mean that the manufacturers need to feel some kind of penalty when they get something wrong. As a sporting solution grid penalties don't work because they make a mockery of the grid/race/event.

It all comes back to getting real and dropping the technology. We will have e racing soon enough, but as we are still trying to run on oil then why not make it a simple V8/V10/V12 formula of a certain swept volume? Any unreliability will carry a financial and sporting penalty simply because the team won't score points and/or won't start in a good position. Natural justice if you will.

Also, both manufacturers and their customers should run the same version of the specific engine.
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Old 13 Sep 2017, 16:13 (Ref:3766581)   #77
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Peter, you have to take into account why we are where we are, with the PUs.

Back in 2010 and 2011 when the discussions about the new PU technology was being carried out, the two loudest voices from the producers of the PUs were Mercedes and Renault.

Renault insisted that the base of the ICE had to be relevant to their road going vehicles, and at the time were demanding that it be a 4 cylinder block. However, they relented and accepted the V6.

On the other side of the table, Mercedes had the main board of Daimler Benz breathing down their necks, and the main board only gave the green light to the project when the racing engineering team had assured them that their would be at least a 25% reduction in fuel required with the new PUs, and that they could incorporate technology that they were already developing for their road going vehicles.

I fear that if your dream, and it's also the dream of many on here including myself, was to come to fruition, then we would probably lose both of those manufacturers.

One could debate whether that would be a great loss in the grand scheme of things, but it does then mean that the sport would need to rely on the likes of Cosworth, without a benefactor such as Ford, being able to compete with the financial clout of Ferrari assuming that they stayed on.
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Old 13 Sep 2017, 16:34 (Ref:3766584)   #78
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Exactly. Lose the manufacturers or stop complaining.
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Old 13 Sep 2017, 22:49 (Ref:3766668)   #79
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Also, both manufacturers and their customers should run the same version of the specific engine.
Yes and the engines should come at a fixed price and be randomly allocated to the teams out of a pool by the FIA.

It is also all very well that the manufacturers be allowed to showcase their technology, however they should not be allowed to charge the customer teams exorbitant bills to provide the PU's.

The PU's should be priced at the level of a normally aspirated 3 litre V10.

Failing this agreement F1 should just return to the 3 litre V10s which would be much more widely attainable than just from Mercedes. (Nobody else can build one.)

Note to Richard on the "run what you brung" formula libre, how much worse could it get than Mercedes' total dominance of the last 3 years? We have never experienced anything that has come close!
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Old 13 Sep 2017, 22:58 (Ref:3766670)   #80
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It would be very interesting to see what the individual team finances would look like if F1 lost the manufacturers, I would submit that everyone except Mercedes and Ferrari would be much better off financially!
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Old 14 Sep 2017, 16:07 (Ref:3766845)   #81
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It is also all very well that the manufacturers be allowed to showcase their technology, however they should not be allowed to charge the customer teams exorbitant bills to provide the PU's.
was just thinking about this when reading about Merc's new hypercar.

using technology based on their F1 engine program, reportedly, they are about to produce 275 cars with a price tag of around 2mil per (apparently all of which are already sold)...conservatively thats 600mil before any after market upgrades, storage, and factory support packages owners will no doubt have to buy as well. thats a pretty large windfall from their f1 program.

so while, i can understand them wanting to sell their engines to f1 customers for a profit, its also clear that they have other ways, beyond having their customer teams foot the bill, to monetize their F1 engine program.

obviously there are a lot of numbers i dont have access to, so this is just a broad generalization, but i think its a fair question to ask why their F1 customers are being asked to subsidize their engine program given that Merc clearly have the ability to realize a return on their R&D cost via a hypercar program (and also potentially down the road through their road car divisions).

going one step further, i think its reasonable to suggest they be required to sell their engines to F1 teams at or below cost.
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Old 14 Sep 2017, 20:24 (Ref:3766905)   #82
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going one step further, i think its reasonable to suggest they be required to sell their engines to F1 teams at or below cost.


Ehh??? As a Business, that is a crap suggestion. Why should they do that??
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Old 14 Sep 2017, 23:36 (Ref:3766927)   #83
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going one step further, i think its reasonable to suggest they be required to sell their engines to F1 teams at or below cost.


Ehh??? As a Business, that is a crap suggestion. Why should they do that??
Exactly, which is why I don't fully understand the FIA's insistence on a fixed price engine. I know why they want it, as it does help the minnows but why penalize Merc and Ferrari for being good.

The market will reflect the prices - too high and no will pay but if it's good enough then it should command a high price. If we end up with a grid full of Mercs, then so be it. But that is something the FIA don't want....

Either make all the engines the same by freezing Merc & Ferrari, and giving Honda and Renault unlimited testing to get them up to speed. Or let the best team win.
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Old 15 Sep 2017, 07:26 (Ref:3766999)   #84
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Sadly technology has killed F1...
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Old 15 Sep 2017, 08:46 (Ref:3767017)   #85
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going one step further, i think its reasonable to suggest they be required to sell their engines to F1 teams at or below cost.


Ehh??? As a Business, that is a crap suggestion. Why should they do that??
Because this is also a sport, not just a series of businesses. If engines are too expensive, then you'll lose teams and the sport will die.
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Old 15 Sep 2017, 11:33 (Ref:3767061)   #86
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Sadly technology has killed F1...
If they wanted to save teams money, they could come up with a set of rules that are not completely mental.
It's pretty hard to turn a Grand Prix at Spa into a snorefest, but they pulled it off in spades.
I enjoyed watching the Fun Cup race at Spa more than the F1 race.
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Old 15 Sep 2017, 16:10 (Ref:3767147)   #87
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Ehh??? As a Business, that is a crap suggestion. Why should they do that??
adding to what Akrapovic said, because by helping F1 stay healthy (by promoting competition) they ensure that F1 stays a viable tool for advertising, branding, and R&D research purposes...which means they stand to make far more money in the long term via increased road car and hyper car sales in the future.

so from an economic point of view, there is a tipping point where they risk long term profits (via road/hyper car sales) for a relatively modest short term gain through PU sales to their competitors.

but all that aside...i actually think the current structure is bad business.

the likes of Williams, Force India, Mclaren etc are helping their engine manu carry out their research (essentially aiding them in creating a commercially viable product).

to be honest, me saying they should sell at cost or below is a compromise on my part...closer to my heart is a system where the engine manus pay the customer teams for helping them develop and promote their multi billion dollar brands (which i hope they agree to in the next concord by allowing for a more fair distribution of the prize fund or by agreeing to a simpler/cheaper engine formula that has more relevance to sporting competition then it does to their road car sales).

but hey im a left wing/social redistribution kind of guy so to me the current system is too much like taxing the poor to subsidize the rich...to me thats both bad business and unsustainable.
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