GTE / GTLM 2018, on the way to a new GT1 era

[MaskedRacer]

The Shank Acura team is very good. I think HPD should give them a shot to race as a full factory squad still. GTLM would be the place though. With BMW moving to GTE compliance. There is space for someone to get that special waiver that BMW has had the last couple of years. Maybe it could be the Acura NSX.

What would it take to get that car to run a couple seconds a lap faster to get into GTLM speed range? Michelin tires, and some aero like rear wing enhancements and a diffuser would instantly move that car ahead of the GTD's comfortably and into the GTLM range. The speed gap between GTLM and GTD is as small as it has been since the ALMS/GA merger. So it could be done I think.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

The Shank Acura team is very good. I think HPD should give them a shot to race as a full factory squad still. GTLM would be the place though. With BMW moving to GTE compliance. There is space for someone to get that special waiver that BMW has had the last couple of years. Maybe it could be the Acura NSX.

What would it take to get that car to run a couple seconds a lap faster to get into GTLM speed range? Michelin tires, and some aero like rear wing enhancements and a diffuser would instantly move that car ahead of the GTD's comfortably and into the GTLM range. The speed gap between GTLM and GTD is as small as it has been since the ALMS/GA merger. So it could be done I think.

Acura already goes to DPI, I do not think they want to have another factory program.
Lexus was the one that had interest in GTLM, but TRD President and General Manager Dave Wilson said:
"Prospects of a move into the GT Le Mans class have been put on hold, at least for the time being, despite having shown interest in the class earlier this year.
“What I’ll say about GTLM is that it’s GT racing but it’s a big step from where we are today. Yes we can be a ‘factory team’ but you really have to have the commitment.
“I think you’d have to have a car that’s suited to go racing in GTLM and the organization with a very purposeful determination to go GTLM racing. I don’t foresee that any time in the near future.

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/to...ries-for-2018/

[Articus]

Soo...might Toni Vilander find himself in a BMW next year?

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/v...or-the-future/

[deggis]

BMW GTE has been shakedowned/tested: https://www.racing24-7.net/en/2017/0...ye-m8-gte-bil/

[hondafan37]

Porsche GT Factory Motorsports Director Marco Ujhasi believes both the FIA World Endurance Championship and IMSA WeatherTech SportsCar Championship have succeeded in establishing different, but objective Balance of Performance systems for GTE-specification cars.

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/u...o-control-bop/

[BSchneiderFan]

Here's a question: if LMP1 collapsed (which I think it might) could GTLM be sped up so it competed against the LMP2 prototypes, the way GT1 competed against LMP in the 1990s?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Here's a question: if LMP1 collapsed (which I think it might) could GTLM be sped up so it competed against the LMP2 prototypes, the way GT1 competed against LMP in the 1990s?

Probably not by that much, but I don't understand what this would achieve. The ACO wants clear gaps between the cars and that's what they have.

[BSchneiderFan]

If LMP1 goes, it would allow manufacturers to compete for overall wins, while also providing an outlet to sustain prototype chassis manufacturers like ORECA and Ginetta.

[chernaudi]

I think that we'll see a privateer dominated LMP1 class long before we see GTE cars competing for overall wins on speed.

Those old GT1 cars were monstrously more deeply modified (to the point where most were built up to be racing cars first and foremost) to race than the current GTE cars, which even the Ford GT was built to much stricter regs to keep performance in check than say a Porsche 911 GT1 or McLaren F1, let alone the Mercedes-Benz CLK-GTR/CLK-LM and the Toyota GT-One.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

If LMP1 goes, it would allow manufacturers to compete for overall wins, while also providing an outlet to sustain prototype chassis manufacturers like ORECA and Ginetta.

Manufacturers entering GTE currently have no chance of a win so I'm not sure why the change would be needed. If LMP1 as we know it died then they'd either allow DPi or allow factory teams in P1-L and it'd get entires. I don't think speeding up GT cars would really do anything.

[chernaudi]

I don't think it's possible because we have to remember that LMP2 was given a BHP hike (from 450 to 600) to try and mitigate traffic squables between LMP2s and GTs by giving the LMP2s more straightaway speed.

LMP2s already are making the same power that the hybrid LMP1s are making on engine power alone (when the hybrid systems peter out they're left with about 600bhp). And LMP1s have to lift and coast due to fuel consumption regs. LMP2s don't as they still use air restrictors.

Also, even LMP2s are more advanced in technology than GTEs are. Even if the Ford GT has a carbon tub and inboard pushrod suspension with torsion bar springs, that's about all it has in common with a modern LMP car (and LMPs have had that stuff since the Bentley Speed 8 family dating back to late 2000, and the Jaguar XJR-14/Joest TWR Porsche WSCs had torsion bar pushrod suspension as well before that).

The prototypes are still much lighter, make much more downforce and on a dry track still make more mechanical grip in all but the slowest of corners (the GTE's weight does give them better low speed road holding, especially in the wet).

For the scenario for GT cars to compete head to head with LMPs, they would in essence have to become prototypes themselves. At which point I have to ask, "why not just build a prototype?"

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

For the scenario for GT cars to compete head to head with LMPs, they would in essence have to become prototypes themselves. At which point I have to ask, "why not just build a prototype?"

Simply because a GT is much prettier than a prototype.
Surely the GT1 of the late 90's are among the most beautiful cars in the history and for me the 911 GT1 of 1998 is the most beautiful Le Mans winner in the history.
A new GT1 category, with cars like Aston Martin Valkyrie, Ferrari Laferrari (or the racing version FXX-K), Mc Laren P1 GTR(or the future BP23), Porsche 918, AMG Projects One, Pagani Huayra would be a dream.
Aston Martin Racing boss John Gaw said a few months ago:
“I’d love to see in the future LMP regulations in 2020 allow a GTP car to compete at the front using the hyper cars that are out there now. It wouldn’t be a massive shock to me. Aston, Ferrari, Mercedes, they all have hypercars.
“Why couldn’t we go back to the days like 1998 and have GTP competing alongside LMP?”

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/0...car-brand.html

[canaglia]

Unfortunately that's the most unrealistic scenario ever.

Let's consider that a "stock" LaFerrari price is:

2x488 gt3

1.75x488 gte

2xlmp2

you can only image how could be expensive a GT1 version....

late '90 years GT1 class is one of a kind story. CLK mercedes, R390 GT1, toyota gt-one and '96-98 911 GT1 were race built prototypes with just 3 or 4 units sold as street cars to get the homologation. Guess that only mclaren f1 gtr/gtr LT and the stillborn F50 GT were still based on a street derivated chassis.
You can expect the best when manufacturers decide to step in a championship alltogheter, and expect the worst when all togheter decided to go out.....

[Adam43]

I know the purpose of an internet forum is to tell others they are wrong, but I can see both sides here.

It was a perfectly reasonably hypothesis. Why not make GT cars as fast as LMP2 (if there is no LMP1)?

The point that there is no need for entries is right, we have plenty of GT as it is and we won't need to replace that many LMP1 anyway! However the reason to do being based on manufacturer involvement is a good one. It might not be required for numbers, but the ACO (and fans) would prefer the pull of a manufacturer name competing for the overall win.

Then there is the can they? We're talking just over 20s a lap needed. I think half is easy with removing restrictions GT cars. Could all of them gain 10s easily? That might be a slightly different question, but maybe we'd be ditching BoP anyway? Some (lots of us) would like that. But it might risk numbers? Cost, well it'd go up, but then so do the potential rewards.

The other half could be achieved by slowing the LMP2 to something more akin to previous years. Is that too slow? Other gains could be made on the strategy side. Like in the '90s. The GT cars already go longer between stints. Different fuel tanks and tyre rules could extent this. They might be slower, but have other advantages.

So, it isn't ideal, but isn't completely stupid either.

Everyone is wrong! Hurrah!

[canaglia]

put a 600hp street derivated motor in a DTM/SGT style silhouette car and you'll get a lmp1.5like performance ranger car

[Scorchess]

Yep. You don't need supercars, put a big hybrid system in a GT500 car and they can match 2012 LMP1 cars easily.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by canaglia

put a 600hp street derivated motor in a DTM/SGT style silhouette car and you'll get a lmp1.5like performance ranger car

Cause that is def NOT a GT car. That would be called a Vette DP Gen 3(Carbon), for lack of a better way to put it. At least the GTs have some basis internally with their street car brethren, depending on allowances/engine position and other waivers.


Adding power to the GT cars does make me wonder what other problems that would bring on. Adding power to the Vette is surely going to be tough without straining the chassis out of the corners. Would make rain races more interesting and give the prototypes a chance to keep up as the GT guys get very light footed. Although we do seem to rarely see GT engine failures, fires and parts failures yes but actually having one let go seems rare enough I've forgotten.

[Akrapovic]

I understand introducing new GT regulations using hypercars. But the original question was about speeding up GT cars, and I read it as the current cars. And the current cars aren't going to get close.

Yes, LMP2 got a speed boost this year through an extra 150hp. But that 150hp wasn't just lifting a restrictor - it was a brand new engine. You aren't going to be able to get the extra 150-200hp, plus required aero from the current GTE grid. You simply aren't going to get that from opening up restrictors and giving them even bigger diffusers (the Aston would need to tow a trailer to hold it). Even if you did get that power, you're going to start blowing up engines (expensive), and stressing the rest of the car.

New GT cars? Might be possible. Current cars? No.

But then the prices of the new GT cars required to run at the front would be more than an LMP1-L car. So why bother? You move from one unsustainable situation to another.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

You aren't going to be able to get the extra 150-200hp, plus required aero from the current GTE grid. You simply aren't going to get that from opening up restrictors and giving them even bigger diffusers (the Aston would need to tow a trailer to hold it). Even if you did get that power, you're going to start blowing up engines (expensive), and stressing the rest of the car.

I was thinking about that too, I can't say I recall engines blowing in GT cars. Parts breaking and fires but having an engine just let go, I can't really remember any. But to gain that kind of power would be tough from most if not all the engines. The Vette engine might handle it but that's pretty overbuilt and there's room to grow. Porsche would need to turbo, that poor flat-6 is about wrung out for NA but they seem to always find something every year, but 200 is a BIG ask without forced induction.

[BSchneiderFan]

I would have no problem with a turbo Porsche.

[JHamilton]

We talking about the 1990s GT1 that was incorporated into LMP not GTS/GT1 from the following decade, correct?

[Akrapovic]

Let's remember that the 90s GT1s were amazing, but imploded at record speed.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

I would have no problem with a turbo Porsche.

I was surprised this model was not a turbo actually. I can't imagine the next 911 will still be NA in GTE/LM

[canaglia]

Actual GTE cars are just about 2-3 seconds off from golden 2007-2008 GT1 years.

2008 spa 24 hours pole: 2.13.9
2017 spa 6h GTE WEC: 2.15.0

2008 LM 24 hous GT1: 3.47.8
2016 LM GTE WEC: 3.50.8

To reach those times, guess it would be enough to bring power to 550hp at least and set min. weight down to 1150kg.
With turbo engines, everything is possible just increasing pressure boost. Corvette 5.5L won't get problem as well, porsche and aston engines should run unrestricted.... even if porsche small L6 should cross 10000rpm to achieve that....

[chernaudi]

Current GTEs can rival the pace of the old GT1s, but it's taken us the best part of a decade to get there. It's taken a gradual evolution of tire technology, aerodynamics and chassis dynamics to get there.

Unless you let hyper cars into a new GT1 class, I highly doubt that we'll have GTs that rival LMPs any time soon. And even if such a class was made up right now, how many car makers would bite? That's another risk you're taking.

LMP2 got to where it is now though a similar evolution. It took new chassis based on closed LMP1 specs, a new engine, and evolutions in tire and aero tech.

This didn't happen overnight. It also didn't take overnight for LMP1 to get to where it is. It took LMP900/GTP, and three incarnations of the overall LMP1 regs to get here, something that took almost 15 years to achieve.

By the same reasoning, it took GTE to become what it is today similarly as long. GTE became what it is from the old BPR GT3 regs become ACO GT after GT1 became LMGTP and GT2 became GTS (and later GT1), then it became GT2 and became GTE (originally a re-branding on GT2 and splitting it into a dedicated all-pro and pro-am class each), and then the 2016 rules updates.