Sulman Park Safety

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

A light in the car...you do know that the mount rises 600 meters? You probably don't know that radio communications can be a little iffy with all the blind spots etc...what if the bulb blows because the cars electrical system isn't perfect? I

I could go on...

Im saying the Yellow Warning light might be a quicker or another alternative than a yellow flag in this instance. No flag marshall would have got their flag out in that instance to stop the crash. But a change in track is a bit over the top also. Racing is dangerous.

GET OFF THE GAS !!!!

[johnh875]

I'd have to agree with Woolley's suggestion in the 12 Hour thread of moving the outside wall back, together with using the right type of barrier, to reduce the chances of a car ending up stopped in the middle of the track. Signalling upgrades are a must of course too.

Plus amend the regulations to provide penalties that bite for any driver not responding to flags, and use them. After all there was a crash behind the safety car a few years back in the 1000 that was completely unpenalised!

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by johnh875

I'd have to agree with Woolley's suggestion in the 12 Hour thread of moving the outside wall back, together with using the right type of barrier, to reduce the chances of a car ending up stopped in the middle of the track. Signalling upgrades are a must of course too.

Plus amend the regulations to provide penalties that bite for any driver not responding to flags, and use them. After all there was a crash behind the safety car a few years back in the 1000 that was completely unpenalised!

The thing is...if you widen, and probably make it faster across the top...then you are likely to move the danger point to Skyline, The Dipper etc

Maybe modifying the brow at Reid Park or so could make the approach less "blind"...but really? A lot of people here seem to be overthinking this...I say again, how many THOUSANDS of laps, and HUNDREDS of drivers have passed through this section unscathed

[Average Punter]

Flashing lights, double waved flags, LED panels.

When the driver is concentrating hard looking for grates and apexes and turn ins it's all irrelevant.

It's a dangerous joint and will stay that way.

Like Eau Rouge. And the Corkscrew, and Siberia, and Casino Square, and all of Monza......

[peckstar]

Could we flatten out the rise in the track thus giving clearer visability

[ford71]

[mayhem]

Originally Posted by Average Punter

Flashing lights, double waved flags, LED panels.

When the driver is concentrating hard looking for grates and apexes and turn ins it's all irrelevant.

It's a dangerous joint and will stay that way.

Like Eau Rouge. And the Corkscrew, and Siberia, and Casino Square, and all of Monza......

[TWRv12]

Originally Posted by Average Punter

Flashing lights, double waved flags, LED panels.

When the driver is concentrating hard looking for grates and apexes and turn ins it's all irrelevant.

It's a dangerous joint and will stay that way.

Like Eau Rouge. And the Corkscrew, and Siberia, and Casino Square, and all of Monza......

Always worth exploring a better way.

On Board Marshalling Systems would probably help
http://www.emmotorsport.com/portfoli...portorder=menu

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

Always worth exploring a better way.

On Board Marshalling Systems would probably help
http://www.emmotorsport.com/portfoli...portorder=menu

Jamie whincup cant even read a fuel gauge at Bathurst or see a green flashing light

[StueyB83]

The suggestion of pushing back the inside wall, done by clearing trees, adding in a retaining wall and infilling the change in grade - would be the most beneficial to improve the drivers sight line out of Reid park into Sulman.

LED Lighting systems still require marshal operation and someone being in the right frame of mind to activate it appropriately - as opposed to standing mouth agape watching the accident play out. So there is still a chance to create error.

Put the immediacy of danger on the incoming drivers so they themselves can provide the appropriate reaction.

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

I cannot 100% confirm, but the current situation relies on a call from Race Control to allow the lights to function. When approach speeds are north of 200km/h, with almost no room to take evasive action, you tell me if this is good enough. It is also alleged that the lights are not very effective due to their design and postion, and are difficult to sight by the drivers.

For your first point, that is incorrect. There are about 4 or r5 flagppoints on the way up the hill, and a similar number on the way down (two seperate systems) that can all trigger the yellow lights without any interaction required from RC.

The lights are very similar to traffic lights, and are put in positions that the drivers eyeline will see them...dunno if they're effective though.


I saw a very interesting system being tested at Bathurst on the weekend, will see how long it takes before it is introduced

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

...I say again, how many THOUSANDS of laps, and HUNDREDS of drivers have passed through this section unscathed

EXactly, accidents are gonna happen no matter how safe or unsafe a track is.

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

The thing is...if you widen, and probably make it faster across the top...then you are likely to move the danger point to Skyline, The Dipper etc

Maybe modifying the brow at Reid Park or so could make the approach less "blind"...but really? A lot of people here seem to be overthinking this...I say again, how many THOUSANDS of laps, and HUNDREDS of drivers have passed through this section unscathed

Not widening the track, just moving the wall back to create some space so that it is possible for a car to come to rest off the track.

If the inside wall can be moved to open up the sight line for the drivers, that would be much better still rather than relying on signalling and drivers seeing and reacting properly to it. I am not sure how the geography would work for that but as they say anything is possible.

Sandgroper, so the answer is to do nothing? I don't think it is overstating things to say there could have been another death on that section of track last weekend if either driver was sitting on the other side of the car. I don't know about you but I'd rather not see that happen.

[275 GTB-4]

Maybe we need a sand trap?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi0xyE6XSSk

but this would be the safest solution...

https://www.tripadvisor.com.au/Locat...outh_Wale.html

[peckstar]

with 11 seconds between original accident and secondary accident. One of two things happened. eitehr the driver ignored the flags and didnt take appropriate action or the flags did not convey the apporpriate message (there a few reasons that could have happened) Thus both of these things are not racing incidents, they are a failure of the current system. The system can be fixed without changing the track

With at least 3 significant incidents happened now all for the same two reasons they are two things they can be fixed and shoudl be fixed. Only a bad workplace would let them continue

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by peckstar

with 11 seconds between original accident and secondary accident. One of two things happened. eitehr the driver ignored the flags and didnt take appropriate action or the flags did not convey the apporpriate message (there a few reasons that could have happened) Thus both of these things are not racing incidents, they are a failure of the current system. The system can be fixed without changing the track

With at least 3 significant incidents happened now all for the same two reasons they are two things they can be fixed and shoudl be fixed. Only a bad workplace would let them continue

Sure...however, Motorsport has human participants and human officials...humans make mistakes and/or can perform below par...so if you want a perfect race environment get a field of driverless autonomous hybrid vehicles together...personally, I would rather watch paint dry or grass grow.

The dodgy (like that?!) video available appears to show a Flag Point slow to react as was Race Control (and that could have been a related communications issue)...but on the other hand, and for example,

I have been in a situation where there was a collision at Bathurst, I made (what I thought) was a prompt reaction including radio report, beautiful, full Yellow flag, waved just at the right speed to maximise visibility, leaning over the ARMCO, clearly visible to the approaching drivers and guess what? a scene similar to a Blues Brothers crashfest occurred...

On a scale of one to ten, this incident was about 5...the Merc took enough avoiding action so as to just clip the rear end of the stalled car, rather than T boning and possibly being a fatal. There have been 10 out of 10 incidents elsewhere on the track...so why are people rabbiting on about this one? Red Flagged race? or just bored and need to get out more

[one five five]

Originally Posted by johnh875

If the inside wall can be moved to open up the sight line for the drivers, that would be much better still rather than relying on signalling and drivers seeing and reacting properly to it. I am not sure how the geography would work for that but as they say anything is possible.

The wall used to be further back. It was moved inwards in 1999 for safety reasons, as part of a track upgrade

Originally Posted by johnh875

I don't think it is overstating things to say there could have been another death on that section of track last weekend if either driver was sitting on the other side of the car. I don't know about you but I'd rather not see that happen.

Every little incident in motor racing could have had a worse outcome if one factor was a little different, what happened last weekend is not a special case.

It was a big crash, the drivers survived, the track is as safe as it has ever been. Why are we looking for issues with it?

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

so why are people rabbiting on about this one? Red Flagged race? or just bored and need to get out more

Totally agree.

Making noise here for the sake of it.

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

The second crash was a signalling (or lack thereof) problem.

The time it will take before CAMS decides to make some improvements, will give you an idea on how long it'll take before they eventually implement something like a Code 60. Probably never.

In general terms, Supercars have been the main catalyst for changes in track safety, and the procedures around it, for the last little while. CAMS will continue to sit on their hands until they're forced to make a change. The only time they even look like they're being proactive, is when there's money to be made.

http://www.supercars.com/news/champi...arning-system/

Oh gee-whiz, would you look at that...

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by johnh875

I'd have to agree with Woolley's suggestion in the 12 Hour thread of moving the outside wall back, together with using the right type of barrier, to reduce the chances of a car ending up stopped in the middle of the track.

Playing devil's advocate against my own post, no idea if it's possible, and it may be that it introduces other dangers such as angle of impact for the first incident.

[db120176]

Does anyone suggest that McPhillamy Park has been ruined by the addition of a sand trap area? Were there these suggestions at the time it was created?

I like the idea of a run-off area as it would drastically reduce the number of cars left stationary across the track

[chavez]

Originally Posted by db120176

Does anyone suggest that McPhillamy Park has been ruined by the addition of a sand trap area? Were there these suggestions at the time it was created?

I like the idea of a run-off area as it would drastically reduce the number of cars left stationary across the track

Definitely reduced, to paraphase Peter Brock, the "consequences of making a mistake".

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by db120176

Does anyone suggest that McPhillamy Park has been ruined by the addition of a sand trap area? Were there these suggestions at the time it was created?

I like the idea of a run-off area as it would drastically reduce the number of cars left stationary across the track

Me too.Bathurst needs to be made safer and the consequences of a mistake less expensive and less dangerous where possible.A good place to start would be having a proper spec run off at the end of Mountain Straight.Forrests Elbow could be next.Then start working on Reid Park to Skyline.A better use of funds than that stupid second circuit proposal that seems to have died another natural death.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Me too.Bathurst needs to be made safer and the consequences of a mistake less expensive and less dangerous where possible.A good place to start would be having a proper spec run off at the end of Mountain Straight.Forrests Elbow could be next.Then start working on Reid Park to Skyline.A better use of funds than that stupid second circuit proposal that seems to have died another natural death.

With all due respect Alan, you are talking millions of dollars worth of work...there is "resort" above the cutting etc...

McPhillamy Sandtrap...managed to avoid it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q05zc8utFy4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffxQexsh77o

Hate to see this again...but this is how INEFFECTIVE sandtraps can be...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDtfBh29sSM

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

With all due respect Alan, you are talking millions of dollars worth of work...there is "resort" above the cutting etc...

McPhillamy Sandtrap...managed to avoid it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q05zc8utFy4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffxQexsh77o

Hate to see this again...but this is how INEFFECTIVE sandtraps can be...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDtfBh29sSM

Didn't mention above the cutting.Aware of difficulties there.
The budget for new circuit was $50mill.About $15mill of this allocated.The rest is not going to happen.That $15mill could help future proof the existing circuit.
The Chase and other circuit modifications cost substantial sums as well.What exists now is not going to meet standards forever.

[chavez]

Isn't the outside of Griffin's Bend and the exit of Forrest's Elbow privately owned land?