Rules Team orders abolished - Page 3

Marbot · 12 Dec 2010, 17:07 (Ref:2803342)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

It's very different, since you can not script the outcome of a Grand Prix before hand.

It's still no different. Manipulation is manipulation, no matter when it's done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Unless the teams performance is miles and miles ahead of the others, and a 1-2 finish is 100% certain..

Yes, we've all seen that one haven't we!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

I'm quite glad they got rid of this unenforceable rule, maybe now we'll finally get to see the true colors of Red Bull and the rest of the "We don't use team orders!" brigade.

Well, if we do, it will probably be to the detriment of Ferrari, who have already shown us their hand. And it's no holds barred from hereon!

Wims · 12 Dec 2010, 18:29 (Ref:2803374)

Professional Wrestling is not manipulation of the results. There are no results, its an act. There is no fighting. Its not a sport. Its about as much of a sport as movies are a sport

Super Hans · 12 Dec 2010, 18:38 (Ref:2803379)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wims

Professional Wrestling is not manipulation of the results. There are no results, its an act. There is no fighting. Its not a sport. Its about as much of a sport as movies are a sport

Indeed.

To suggest that F1 is akin to WWF because of team orders shows a ludicrous lack of perspective.

**Adam43** · 12 Dec 2010, 19:20 (Ref:2803405)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

And what difference does it make if the scripting is done months or minutes before the event? T'is manipulation whichever way you look at it.

You really think these things are worthy of comparison? It is not even worthy of discussion. Well, not worthy of sensible intelligent discussion. It is like a Radio 5 live phone-in or the Jeremy Vine show?

Not wanting team orders is a point of view. Making out they are comparable to WWF is ridiculous view that demonstrates a lack of understanding.

EDIT: Oh, as others have said before me. What a waste of a thread.

**Bononi** · 12 Dec 2010, 19:28 (Ref:2803414)

Well, should we close the thread then ?

One less to care about...

**Adam43** · 12 Dec 2010, 19:36 (Ref:2803417)

Apart from the original post of news. none of us has actually contributed anything new.

Still it is an important topic.

**Bononi** · 12 Dec 2010, 19:39 (Ref:2803419)

Not a waste of thread, then.

**Adam43** · 12 Dec 2010, 19:42 (Ref:2803420)

That remains to be seen!

**Bononi** · 12 Dec 2010, 19:47 (Ref:2803426)

Watching it closely !

Marbot · 13 Dec 2010, 18:01 (Ref:2803950)

There's nothing artificial about F1 anyway. It's a team sport that unfortunately has the emphasis on winning the drivers title, but nothing is ever perfect is it.

One team recently won the constructors championship and had an off-season like a wet weekend in Blackpool. Phrases like: "Next season we will do better" were being used.

And if a driver is asked to move over for another driver, then by definition, the results have been manipulated. That's not to say it's illegal, just manipulated.

Like I said, I have nothing against team orders.

**garcon** · 13 Dec 2010, 18:12 (Ref:2803957)

It's almost as if most F1 fans have never watched any other form of motorsport.

Oh wait...

**garcon** · 13 Dec 2010, 18:16 (Ref:2803962)

Oh ...

And imagine a football match where the 11 players on a team were meant to individually attempt to put the ball in the net but couldn't be seen to co-operate with each other in any way.

(A bit like West Ham at the moment...).

That's a far better comparison than WWFF.

(Yes I added an F).

Marbot · 13 Dec 2010, 19:31 (Ref:2803999)

I suppose that I'm safe in assuming that Football (Soccer) is a team sport?

It's only aim is that the team should win. There is no individual players championship (who was the premiership player of the season last season? even if it mattered) and there is no championship for most goals scored by an individual player in a season. The fans merely want the team to win regardless of which individuals do it for them. No soccer fan ever got excited about one of his teams players scoring the most goals in a season despite not winning any silverware.

Unfortunately, I don't think that many would watch F1 if it didn't have an individuals championship. Why does it need one? Is not watching your team win enough? Well, not if the ratio of driver threads to team threads is anything to go by. I guess that it's just one of F1s nuances.

**Bononi** · 13 Dec 2010, 19:41 (Ref:2804005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

I suppose that I'm safe in assuming that Football (Soccer) is a team sport?

I don't know if you're safe where you are, but you can rest assured that football is a team sport...

Marbot · 13 Dec 2010, 19:50 (Ref:2804008)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bononi

I don't know if you're safe where you are, but you can rest assured that football is a team sport...

Thank goodness for that!

For me, the F1 team championship was already over in Brazil. What on earth all that fuss was about in Abu Dhabi, I have no idea!

**Bononi** · 13 Dec 2010, 21:03 (Ref:2804039)

Good point...

Wims · 13 Dec 2010, 21:18 (Ref:2804043)

Team orders in an individual sport -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxi4JFFult0#t=4m53s
Notice how the race leader pulls over to let his team mate through. Nobody has ever complained about "rigging" in that sport.

christcc2 · 13 Dec 2010, 22:01 (Ref:2804065)

It's nice to finally acknowledge what is going on at some point in the season behind closed doors. Now at least they can do it in the open "officially."

I think there's a difference between a team order and a rigged race.

Where I think this will get interesting is if we had another Webber/Vettel situation for the championship next year. Does the team let the drivers go at will in the last race, or does the team choose which one get's the the championship.

The internal politics on that scenario would be very interesting.

**Bononi** · 14 Dec 2010, 00:37 (Ref:2804134)

I think it will all depend on what team is leading in the final races, for us to see how the team orders will work...

...and in some other cases, it can be in the middle of the season also.

But the ideal, is right from the start, with all cards on the table.

chillibowl · 15 Dec 2010, 15:53 (Ref:2804786)

i have no problems with team orders. in the past they were used, decisions to build a car around one driver over another are made all the time, resources are restricted so using them strategically is simply the job of a good manager and most importantly each driver has different abilities and since they are not equal there should be no expectation that they be treated as equals. it happens all the time leading up to a race so naturally it will happen during the race.

however, from reading this thread it is clear that when it happens during a race and is so visibly done it is seen as manipulation and cheating. while i dont agree with that view, it seems to be one being held by more and more people all the time. as such i think by not changing the rule F1 risks becoming devalued (as if that hasn't happened enough already

) a sport cannot survive if so many of its fans suspect the results are not fair.

but whats forcing me to review my position is the renewed push by Ferrari to allow for the top teams to run 3 cars. here.

on one hand Luca wants 3 cars and on the other he wants team rules to stay. obviously if Ferrari are allowed to run 2 cars as interference for its title challenger they will. so my questions for those still in favour of team rules, would a switch to 3 cars per top team also cause you to review the modern relevance of this rule and if so does running 2 or 3 cars actually make a difference to its validity?

Marbot · 15 Dec 2010, 16:41 (Ref:2804804)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wims

Nobody has ever complained about "rigging" in that sport.

Everyone knew what was likely to happen, and no one minds that. Germany took everyone by surprise because of the way it was done and how early in the season it occured.

Marbot · 15 Dec 2010, 16:56 (Ref:2804811)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillibowl

on one hand Luca wants 3 cars and on the other he wants team rules to stay.

Luca just wants to win.....by whatever means possible. For what is F1 if Ferrari aren't winning.....by whatever means possible.

I get the impression that Luca just has too much money to spend and is not being allowed to spend it.

Wims · 15 Dec 2010, 17:05 (Ref:2804815)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

Everyone knew what was likely to happen, and no one minds that. Germany took everyone by surprise because of the way it was done and how early in the season it occured.

One point is worth one point in the first race of the season as well as in the last race of the season. I think anyone with half a brain realises this

Teretonga · 15 Dec 2010, 18:03 (Ref:2804839)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

Luca just wants to win.....by whatever means possible. For what is F1 if Ferrari aren't winning.....by whatever means possible.

I get the impression that Luca just has too much money to spend and is not being allowed to spend it.

If Luca employs the best driver and pays him a small fortune to drive for him he wants to be able to dictate which driver has priority in the team.
He may say they have the same opportunity but it is clear that Alonso is his man and his comments regarding Massa's performance indicate he is not the favoured one.

He also made the comment that Ferrari is a team and that anyone who drives for them understands that.
So when the favoured son is in second and the less favoured son is first then he will be told to let the other past....because 'we are a team'.

Marbot · 15 Dec 2010, 18:19 (Ref:2804844)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wims

One point is worth one point in the first race of the season as well as in the last race of the season. I think anyone with half a brain realises this

It's a point that the Ferrari would have won for its constructors championship whichever way around the drivers had finished in the German GP, and it's probable that Ferrari lost a few more of those and possibly the all important 'drivers' championship for Alonso by the then unnecessary demoralization of one of its drivers. Where was Massa when Alonso needed him most?

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