[BTCC] BTCC Rounds 22/23/24 Rockingham 2017

[auroan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I agree that whatever is causing an advantage (if one exists) should be addressed no matter what it is.
But I still feel it needs to be clear what is causing that. If it is RWD advantage, then any measure imposed to negate that would be imposed on Subaru and BMW at the moment.

Therefore, I still think that there should be a single 'tool' used to apply BoP, (the current regulations allow boost and base weight adjustments mid-season), and that application should be made against individual cars - not against car types or brands.

So when Sutton is doing well - he is impacted heavily.
Someone else will do well - they then are impacted.
The title is then decided on who has handled the impact best, which is why I think a bigger ballast to base weight ratio is the way forward.

I tell you what... lets just give all the teams Solution-F spec cars and have done with it (Ala recent STCC) Lets see how well that goes.

BoP is pants... Do you want motorsports or motor based entertainment ?

Its like telling Usain Bolt he has to hop every other stride to give others a chance.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by auroan

Do you want motorsports or motor based entertainment ?

If you want the former, you are probably in the wrong forum.

Like it or not, the BTCC is now the latter, and has been for several years.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by redshoes

If you want the former, you are probably in the wrong forum.

Like it or not, the BTCC is now the latter, and has been for several years.

Exactly the reply I was going to try and make, but wouldn't have done so so well...

[Akrapovic]

Yeah I mean I love BTCC, but let's just be honest here. It does reverse grids based on a number pulled out of a giant tub. BoP is the least of the 'entertainment' features of the series. Not critising, because we all love BTCC and it's pretty honest about how it goes about things.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by auroan

BoP is pants... Do you want motorsports or motor based entertainment ?

Its like telling Usain Bolt he has to hop every other stride to give others a chance.

To be entertained by a motorsport based competition.
At the moment, they already decide the starting order by lottery for R3 - that would be like having staggered starts selected at random for Bolt?

[S griffin]

At least you know where you are with success ballest and reverse grid

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

At least you know where you are with success ballest and reverse grid

It also makes it a bit easier for commentators to explain what is happening.

When commentating on driver A, who won the first race comfortably, they can describe how the extra weight is hurting them and tell viewers exactly how much extra is on board.

At the moment, when trying to explain why car's performance fluctuates, they are stuck with having to describe 'boost' in very generic terms without being able to tell us who is running what exactly.

[Alfisti]

A vision of Usain Bolt carrying a hod of bricks appeared in my mind...

starting from the back row behind Noel Edmonds pal Mr Blobby.

BTCC may be artificial, but when a tallent like Sutton can still shine through it amplifies the achievement.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

A vision of Usain Bolt carrying a hod of bricks appeared in my mind...

starting from the back row behind Noel Edmonds pal Mr Blobby.

Perhaps we should make all cars have a tow bar, and they have to haul a caravan or trailer with ballast in? Honda have already tested to prove it's feasible.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

BTCC may be artificial, but when a tallent like Sutton can still shine through it amplifies the achievement.

Ignore the RWD/FWD/Boxer/Ballast/BoP/CoG and just take a look at the top 8 places in the standings.

Of those 8, they are all either former champions or individuals who have enough experience/talent to challenge for a title, along with two 'stars of the future' in Ingram and Sutton.

No matter how much people argue there is a bias, or that BoP is wrong, the cream has still risen to the top.

[Alfisti]

That Honda caravan had me thinking. Thinking in an old Top Gear production meeting sort of a way...

The winner of a round shall be forced to sit on a bicycle on the roof rack. The caravan will be hooked up and Mr James May will drive the car.

The start will be from pole. None of this reverse grid stuff...

however, a certain Mr Clarkson will be on the grid in a supercharged Humvee fitted with the latest caravan targetting mechanism.

That will sort the men from the boys.

[BobJones]

Originally Posted by auroan

I tell you what... lets just give all the teams Solution-F spec cars and have done with it (Ala recent STCC) Lets see how well that goes.

BoP is pants... Do you want motorsports or motor based entertainment ?

Its like telling Usain Bolt he has to hop every other stride to give others a chance.

Have you got issues?

The STCC went to hell and back using Solution F. An utter and complete failure.

[BobJones]

Let's just get this clear, the BTCC is not a BoP formula.

They are aiming for engine parity, not identical lap speed, (in terms of the technical regulations) and only change engine power to seek the end results.

There's a difference between parity of certain elements, i.e. BTCC engine power, VASC aerodynamics etc and BoP.

Other formulas such as GTE, GT3 and TCR are aiming for a different goal. They change ECU mapping, engine power, car base waits and more. In some cases, the rules specify they can change any element of the car they deem to change performance, so even suspension settings etc.

That's not in the BTCC.

Sure, there are common parts, but you can engineer those how you want. Sure there are rules you have to build a car within, but again, it's up to you how you fit those rules.

TOCA don't come in and then say, ah right, team 1 run this ride height, team b run this base weight and team c you have to run this rear wing.

I cannot understand how certain forum members keep dragging their knuckles and re-visiting this debate in every single race thread. I thought we all learnt from the clarification during last year's public Subaru spat. Google those articles if you must.

Finally, if you don't enjoy rules that aim to improve the 'show', then there are very few modern racing forms left for you.

F1 has DRS, BTCC success ballast, reverse grid and engine parity, GT3 and GTE are full BoP formulas, TCR is both full BoP and success ballast and reverse grids, FE has FanBoost, IndyCar has fixed aero for 2018, DTM ballast and DRS, VASC aero parity and turbo engines for 2019, the list goes on.

One issue here is perhaps many people seemingly don't know the intricacies of modern motorsport. Listen, no one wants to watch a fix, but figures dip when one team is dominant. Rock and a hard place.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by BobJones

Let's just get this clear, the BTCC is not a BoP formula.

They are aiming for engine parity, not identical lap speed, (in terms of the technical regulations) and only change engine power to seek the end results

But this just isn't true. The Honda has less power, but significantly better in other aspects. The Subaru was given a weight adjustment to raise the CoG. That's not power is it?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by BobJones

Let's just get this clear, the BTCC is not a BoP formula.

They are aiming for engine parity, not identical lap speed, (in terms of the technical regulations) and only change engine power to seek the end results.

TOCA don't come in and then say, ah right, team 1 run this ride height, team b run this base weight and team c you have to run this rear wing.

BTCC success ballast, reverse grid and engine parity

A few points in contradiction/clarification to those you make here:-

BTCC do not change the engine power to achieve results. They change the boost, with the aim of providing 'each team with an engine of an equal power factor'.

TOCA do change team's ride height, and wings, and also have the ability to change the base weight of a car. All of this is in the technical regulations, and there have been ride height and weight adjustments made to cars already this season.

In addition to the list you give for BTCC, you can also add base weight, ride height, CoG, wing profiles and any other homologation agreement that may be appropriate.

[BobJones]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

BTCC do not change the engine power to achieve results. They change the boost, with the aim of providing 'each team with an engine of an equal power factor'

You know full well that more/less boost equates to more/less power and what I was saying. You even quote yourself that it's equal power factor that they are aiming to achieve, which is my point.

You also know that the Subaru is the exception to rule and that they can either have a different ride height or scuttle weight and that no other cars are mandated to those rule additions.

You know better than most, so keep it cool. Other posts talk as if TOCA simply alter Honda's abilities to change results on a race by race basis.

[BobJones]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

But this just isn't true. The Honda has less power, but significantly better in other aspects. The Subaru was given a weight adjustment to raise the CoG. That's not power is it?

What a joker.

The Subaru is the exception in terms of CoG, we all know that.

The Honda is better in areas because TD is the best in the business, and the team has enough funds for fresh brakes every race. You post as if there is no skill in engineering or driving.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by BobJones

What a joker.

The Subaru is the exception in terms of CoG, we all know that.

The Honda is better in areas because TD is the best in the business, and the team has enough funds for fresh brakes every race. You post as if there is no skill in engineering or driving.

So if TD are the best, and the engine powers are equal (you say), then why are they struggling, and why are they down in the speed traps?

BTCC has a BoP system. It just doesn't call it BoP because BoP is a dirty word and has negativity attached to it. And that's fine - it's nothing to be ashamed of. BTCC is blatantly honest that it's about the show rather than a 'pure' sport. So a BoP is just fine for BTCC. Claiming it doesn't exist and then saying examples of it are the exception is a bit silly. Those exceptions prove it exists.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by BobJones

What a joker.

The Subaru is the exception in terms of CoG, we all know that.

The Honda is better in areas because TD is the best in the business, and the team has enough funds for fresh brakes every race. You post as if there is no skill in engineering or driving.

I find it hard to believe that the Honda's outstanding braking ability comes simply from just simply fitting new brakes every session. If that was the case then every other well funded team would be doing the same. You don't just "give away" the ability to brake 5 metres later than every other car.

[BobJones]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

So if TD are the best, and the engine powers are equal (you say), then why are they struggling, and why are they down in the speed traps?

Not sure if you watched the Rockingham races? If not, then they are online http://www.itv.com/btcc/races

I especially enjoy the bit where Matt Neal sets the fastest race lap.
Or the bit where he's rising through the field but gets caught in a crash.
Or the bit where Shedden gets a puncture.
Or when Shedden has contact and loses a wheel.
Then in race 3, where both Hondas rise through the field from the back.

You seem to make up the alternative universe where Honda is "struggling" when really they got caught up in incidents at the last round, and the round before we all know RWD is brilliant at Knockhill.

[BobJones]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I find it hard to believe that the Honda's outstanding braking ability comes simply from just simply fitting new brakes every session. If that was the case then every other well funded team would be doing the same. You don't just "give away" the ability to brake 5 metres later than every other car.

It's a huge part of it, that and excellent skill from the engineers to design a cooling packaging and judgement of the driver. I fail to see what this has to do with BoP. Or are you suggesting they are allowed to run bigger brakes or a lighter car, in which case, they are not.

[Akrapovic]

I particularly liked the bit where they were down on the speed traps, despite your claims of equal power. I did watch the races. I also read this thread, where some data was posted.



Keep excusing the BoP changes as an exception if you want. I live in the universe where BTCC does make BoP changes and should not be ashamed of that fact.

[thlbtcc]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

TOCA do change team's ride height, and wings, and also have the ability to change the base weight of a car.

Only the Subaru I believe, in a way the Quattros were weighted up in the 90s. It's definitely not a change of base weight or ride height in-between rounds for BoP and the regs are only there as a backup I believe.

[BobJones]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I particularly liked the bit where they were down on the speed traps, despite your claims of equal power. I did watch the races. I also read this thread, where some data was posted.

That's the point you are missing.

Power is not the only straight-line speed factor.

We've already been here...

Originally Posted by touring fan01

only on engine power.
speed figures are fairly irrelevent as it depends on lots of other factors like aerodynamics, diff settings, gear ratios used, torque, exit speed out of corners etc etc

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by BobJones

You know full well that more/less boost equates to more/less power and what I was saying. You even quote yourself that it's equal power factor that they are aiming to achieve, which is my point.

You are missing one key word there - factor.
The BTCC does not aim for equal power, that is just a starting point from which to work. They then aim to create an equal power factor for each engine.
Remember power is not measured, but is calculated as a product of torque and rpm.
All engines are tested by TOCA and a power figure is derived as a starting point. From this, the apparent power available will differ through many characteristics including mechanical efficiency and aspiration flow. This can lead to a situation where two engines may be producing identical calculated powers, but delivering vastly different power to the point of load (movement of vehicle mass).
To compensate for this, TOCA make adjustments to the boost of engine - not to alter the power level of the engine - but to provide an equal power factor across the field compared to the original calculated figures.

For the viewer, there is little data that can be referred to for identifying if equal power factor has been achieved. Velocity and acceleration can be indicators, but are not explicitly associated to useable power.
The drivers who make complaints about boost are attempting to get an increase in their own car's power factor, and will use whatever is observable as justification of their claims.

Originally Posted by BobJones

You also know that the Subaru is the exception to rule and that they can either have a different ride height or scuttle weight and that no other cars are mandated to those rule additions.

That rule can be applied to any car in the field, if the championship administrator feels they have a CoG advantage. Currently, only Subaru fit the criteria but they are not the exception to the rule - they are the only one the rule has been applied to. All cars are mandated to the same set of rules.

Originally Posted by BobJones

You know better than most, so keep it cool. Other posts talk as if TOCA simply alter Honda's abilities to change results on a race by race basis.

What is heated? Other posts are critical of TOCA changing things on a race by race basis, but I am not sure they have made any changes to the Honda outside of the normal 9 race interval(s)?
The Subarus and Fords are the cars that have had the more regular amendments, which some of the rest of the field are objecting to the results of.