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Old 13 Jun 2017, 20:39 (Ref:3740996)   #301
ArnageWRC
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ArnageWRC should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Not totally surprising news - I still find it disappointing. Yes, he's made mistakes - but he's not helped by the car having major issues. Finishing 5,6,7th place is of no use to Citroen as they'll learn nothing for the future. He's the only Citroen driver to show rally winning pace. What will Lefebvre offer? Lower Top 10 pace - if he doesn't bin it. Mikkelsen is still getting to know the car, but you would expect improvement - but rally challenging pace?? Hmm....wait and see...

However, if Kris comes back in Finland refreshed and performs well; then it was the right decision....
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Old 14 Jun 2017, 07:41 (Ref:3741102)   #302
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I think it's widely accepted that the Citroen is 'edgy' to drive - Meekes style has always been very much 'push hard' so it's unsurprising he's binning it so often. Breens approach seems more measured and he's picking up finishes without ever really looking like winning. Mikklesen is obviously still learning the car and Lefebvre is still learning generally. I don't think Lefebvre is really a great prospect though is he? I assume that's why they've drafted in Mikklesen?
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Old 14 Jun 2017, 10:23 (Ref:3741133)   #303
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I was right, Tanak finally has had his moment. Another new winner and a dramatic rally throughout. The standard of Rally drivers is up since the late 00s. We're in the middle of another close season

Shame about Meeke though, his car is clearly not as good as others, so he's pushing to make up for the deficiencies. I hope he finds a team that will stand by him in difficult times
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Old 14 Jun 2017, 13:59 (Ref:3741199)   #304
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Alex Langheck should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I really had hoped Citroen would build a super fast & reliable car, so Kris could drive at 7/8 Tenths and still be competitive. Sadly, driving at 10 Tenths reveals major handling issues with the car.
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Old 14 Jun 2017, 16:15 (Ref:3741268)   #305
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WolfsburgRS should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Yeah, ultimately Meeke is fast but it seems he's a little too 'in his head' to be consistent. He needs to learn to win as they say. I like him, and I think he's good for the championship and it's a shame he's been so upside down, no pun intended.
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Old 14 Jun 2017, 18:07 (Ref:3741312)   #306
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crossfades should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Meeke lead much of the development so not all down to Citroen.
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Old 20 Jun 2017, 19:18 (Ref:3745575)   #307
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...Another new winner and a dramatic rally throughout. ...
Where do I even start? I knew the result (heard it by accident although I was avoiding it until I had the time to watch the highlights); what drama!

It looks like the heat got to some of the drivers and the cars but well done to Tanak. It had to come and what a fabulous drive by Essa Pekka too! He was fully on it on the fast stages, quite impressive. Ogier also dug deep on the last stages and looked incredible.

Disappointed for Paddon and Meeke. I hope Kris comes back with more determination and speed while consistently keeping it on the slippery stuff.

Poland is going to be dramatic, if a little scary.
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Old 3 Jul 2017, 11:49 (Ref:3748612)   #308
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Neuville takes the win in Poland - I haven't caught up on all the coverage yet but it looked like the conditions were tricky and people were picking up a lot of damage. Interesting to see just how much performance is lost when various aero parts are knocked off the car. I was surprised to see Tanaks rear wing fall off after a heavy landing - I'd have expected the mounts to cope with that sort of thing and it didn't look like the heaviest of landings.

Citroen still look to be in trouble don't they? Mechanical issues again and the car still looks a handful to drive (although I guess that's what we want as spectators? Drivers having to really work and hang on to the car).
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Old 5 Jul 2017, 09:45 (Ref:3749057)   #309
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This event was quite crazy, probably the trickiest event this season so far. Nice to see Paddon on the podium.

Østberg suffered the same problem as Tänak in Sweden, although the wing apparently just fell off during a straight. He decided to retire then though because it was too dangerous to drive.
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Old 5 Jul 2017, 10:08 (Ref:3749064)   #310
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Good battle between Neuville and Tanak, shame it had to end. Plenty of retirements in that one and now Neuville has closed the gap to Ogier, this title fight is nowhere near over. Without the dominance of VW, it is a lot closer. As for Citroen, Mikkelsen didn't do much, he and Meeke would do better together
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Old 5 Jul 2017, 10:23 (Ref:3749075)   #311
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Good battle between Neuville and Tanak, shame it had to end. Plenty of retirements in that one and now Neuville has closed the gap to Ogier, this title fight is nowhere near over. Without the dominance of VW, it is a lot closer.
It's a good scrap isn't it? The Ford, Hyundai and Toyota look to be quite even on performance - the drivers seemingly can make the difference this year.

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As for Citroen, Mikkelsen didn't do much, he and Meeke would do better together
Citroen are in trouble - Breen seems to be their most consistent driver but he's been hit by mechanical issues and that's knocking his confidence. Meeke is overdriving trying to compensate for the cars lack of performance and has made mistakes as a result. Mikklesen hasn't had the time in the car but looks to be fighting the car a lot. Lefevbre has been largely anonymous. Meeke is back for Finland and needs a clean event. I'm looking forward to seeing the new generation cars in Finland - they really should fly (in all respects!) but if the Citroen is a handful then potentially it'll be the car that suffers most.
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Old 5 Jul 2017, 14:21 (Ref:3749114)   #312
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leonidas should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridleonidas should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Citroen need to admit they have a difficult car and take the pressure off their drivers. I don't think rallying is a sport where piling on the pressure, driver substitutions and 'mind games' actually works. Overdrive a car in Finland and you just end up in the trees.

Incidentally, I was surprised to see spectators so close to some of those jumps in Poland. Many were on low-lying flat ground seemingly unprotected by any trees or barriers. It doesn't take much imagination to realise what could happen... especially as aero seems to fall off some cars fairly easily.
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Old 5 Jul 2017, 14:57 (Ref:3749122)   #313
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Citroen need to admit they have a difficult car and take the pressure off their drivers. I don't think rallying is a sport where piling on the pressure, driver substitutions and 'mind games' actually works. Overdrive a car in Finland and you just end up in the trees.



Incidentally, I was surprised to see spectators so close to some of those jumps in Poland. Many were on low-lying flat ground seemingly unprotected by any trees or barriers. It doesn't take much imagination to realise what could happen... especially as aero seems to fall off some cars fairly easily.


Yeah criticising drivers when the car is a step or two down from Hyundai, Toyota and Ford is not going to help, although some drivers do respond better with a kick up the jacksie. But at the same time scapegoating drivers for doing their best with a difficult car only makes things worse

And it seems the FIA agrees with you on the second point, as it now seems Poland could lose WRC status
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Old 6 Jul 2017, 07:16 (Ref:3749240)   #314
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They cancelled one stage due to lack of spectator safety.

What I like about this year's WRC is that shows drivers differences and is not that much about cars.

But if look at cars my personal opinion is that Citroen and Ford are beginning to lag behind in pure pace. Ford in the hands of Tanak is fast but also risky, Ogier was conservative but just too slow. Toyota still have reliability issues but will improve, their problem is that they have only one capable driver (Latvala), Hyundai is the car to beat this year and my bet is on Neuville for the Championship. Next year Toyota will have the car to beat but Lappi must train to get more consistent and they must get a substitute for Hänninen.
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Old 6 Jul 2017, 09:51 (Ref:3749255)   #315
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What I like about this year's WRC is that shows drivers differences and is not that much about cars.
Agreed - it's a really interesting fight between the drivers this year.

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But if look at cars my personal opinion is that Citroen and Ford are beginning to lag behind in pure pace. Ford in the hands of Tanak is fast but also risky, Ogier was conservative but just too slow. Toyota still have reliability issues but will improve, their problem is that they have only one capable driver (Latvala), Hyundai is the car to beat this year and my bet is on Neuville for the Championship. Next year Toyota will have the car to beat but Lappi must train to get more consistent and they must get a substitute for Hänninen.
Ford probably have the best driver lineup at the moment, Ogier and Tanak are both delivering but I agree the Fiesta is behind the Hyundai and Toyota in terms of pace. Latvala is clearly the lead Toyota driver but Lappi looks like a good second driver, Hanninen looks way off. Hyundai again have a clear number one in Neuville, Paddon and Sordo are doing ok. Citroens drivers are all over the place - Meeke and Breen lack confidence in the car (and Meeke also looks to be lack confidence in himself), Mikklesen needs more seat time and Lefevbre looks off the pace. The Citroen looks like the hardest car to drive - the drivers seem to be fighting the car all the time and it's also unreliable - not a great combination!
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Old 6 Jul 2017, 10:25 (Ref:3749260)   #316
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I actually thought Poland was one of the best events other than the classics like Finland and Monet for years.

Very narrow, tight stages, big jumps, tough sandy gravel that has amazing grip but ruts up a lot and throw in the rain.

I thought some of the safety was fair, but most of it OK, it is all about education. If you watch some of the events from Eastern Europe especially the smaller countries, the cars don't even have rollcages!

But in general I like the idea of going there, it is proper old school rallying where you need to have your wits about you as a fan.

Not, "stand near that area there 300 metres form any cars" coz the MSA have shat themselves about compensation claims so treat every spectator like a retard.
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Old 6 Jul 2017, 16:45 (Ref:3749306)   #317
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leonidas should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridleonidas should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Yes, Poland is a great event but the organisers seem to have their heads up their backsides. They got an official FIA warning two years ago but if anything things have got worse. You've only got to look at the Autosport website pictures to see how close the crowd were getting - some as the spectator antics were as dumb as anything seen since the mid-1980s.

It looks like if will be replaced - I suppose its too much to hope for the return of the Safari... but we can dream...?
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Old 8 Jul 2017, 21:15 (Ref:3749658)   #318
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Not, "stand near that area there 300 metres form any cars" coz the MSA have shat themselves about compensation claims so treat every spectator like a retard.
Those of us that may have to attend the Fatal Accident Inquiry over spectator deaths in Scotland would disagree with you on that one.
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Old 9 Jul 2017, 10:59 (Ref:3749747)   #319
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Agreed

But those poeple that perished should have known better as I recall.

And knee jerk garbage like the MSA have done since then is simply ruining and destroying rallying to such an immense level I cant see it surviving more than 10 years in the UK.

THAT is not a reaction a positive, proactive governing body makes.

it is cacking themselves
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Old 9 Jul 2017, 12:20 (Ref:3749757)   #320
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Chunder you have no idea. It wasn't a knee jerk reaction as you put it, it was a response to the situation. If the MSA had not been seen to do anything there would have been no more rallying in the UK.

Instead of spurting your ill informed rubbish actually read the recommendations from the SPECTATOR SAFETY AT MULTI –VENUE STAGE RALLIES IN SCOTLAND. and from the MSA
Multi-Venue Stage Rally Safety Requirements.
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Old 9 Jul 2017, 13:13 (Ref:3749765)   #321
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Am not going to get in to argument again with you

I have more idea than most.

I watch rallying from all over the world and see a thriving sport on closed roads and towns and villages embracing it.

I see no desperation from governing bodies to accidents in places like Italy, France and Spain. I simply see people acting stupidly and getting a bad result.

Same as what happened on the Jim Clark, that incident COULD have been avoided and was caused by numerous mistakes from many parties.

If you want rallying in the UK to carry on and wilt, yes leave it as it is, have rallies with NO fans, no local interest, no involvement whatsoever from the public, you close the sport off completely to the public. It will carry on and be a closed shop, WTF is good about that?

If you are proactive, you push the envelope with education, new ideas, you don't hid behind legislation because you are petrified of it happening again.

If it does, then let it die! It's dying anyway, so let it die. What on earth is the point of rallying if you no one can go and watch it?

No other motorsport in the world exists behind a non spectator blanket, because that is a stupid, nonsensical situation.

They open roads in Belgium, have a ticket system, allow you to go on certain areas and police it properly. How hard is that really?

I couldn't give a toss about regulations, that is for people like you to waffle about. My attention is on the future. And a future without spectators is no future whatsoever.

If you think so, then you clearly have no idea at all about why people get interested or take part in motorsport of any kind.

You cannot ban everyone because your governing body closes shop.

A friend of mine went to a single venue recently, has been attending rallies for 30 years. Asked the CoC if he could go, stayed miles away from the stages while wandering and was still treated like a criminal who was bringing the rally into risk. SO he left and went stock car racing.

He has helped more cars get going, assisted more crews with warnings, warned other crews about impending issues than any single marshal i would think.

It's about education, having a system of attendance that rewards experience, knowledge and say attending a course. Helping marshals, marshals realising that not every fan is a ****** as most of you do.

THAT is what the MSA should be doing, no just retreating, backing off and making rallying a non spectator event.

if that happens the MSA will ahve assisted it dying. not helped it
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Old 9 Jul 2017, 13:33 (Ref:3749774)   #322
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chunder it is "people like me" that doesn't just sit and the sidelines and b1tch like you do but are actually out on rallies and have an actual understanding of what is going on in UK rallying. What goes on in the rest of the world has no bearing on what happens in the UK as far as safety/insurance is concerned.

You have brought the antidote of your "friend" up before and it proves nothing. So far this year I have not been out on a single rally where spectators were not made welcome.

If you think spectator behaviour on Poland was acceptable then you are definitely part of the problem.
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Old 9 Jul 2017, 17:00 (Ref:3749837)   #323
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
You are typical marshal or event admin person.

Sorry, but the conversation ends there.
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Old 9 Jul 2017, 17:38 (Ref:3749862)   #324
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Come on then, what is a "typical marshal or event admin person" in Chunders world?

To me, that is someone who gives up their time to help run events.

As I have said of you before you are just someone who likes to moan and contributes nothing.
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Old 9 Jul 2017, 20:36 (Ref:3750028)   #325
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I have contributed thousands of pounds over my lifetime to tracks, promoters, written hundreds of pieces for magazines.

I tried the orange brigade once, and felt like I was in some sort of half baked army cadets. Was no fun, and full of little Hitlers. So I walked out and came home.

Whilst I have plenty of admiration for what marshals do, a lot of them are a certain type. Sorry but at a lot of events they just are.

I don't care if that makes me look a berk, as ungrateful or anything. I contribute in my own way, I don't feel the need to get involved in any other.

And both are just as important as the other, a point you seem incapable of grasping, certainly in the context of rallying. Rallying without spectators is a dead sport.
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