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Old 26 Jan 2017, 09:15 (Ref:3705182)   #226
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it's a similar situation for eurocup/3.5 at monaco. paddock is several km away from the pitlane in france - no loss really, it's very peaceful. practice and qualifying are both before 10am, practice usually starts at 8-something and requires a 7am assembly area call. the race is at a seemingly decent time on sunday, but since there is no padding in the schedule, you ARE the padding. because of the lack of space for usual tyre change equipment and the lack of time to spare, if it rains and everyone starts on slicks it's red flag, race over, no matter how long the race has gone on for (certainly with 3.5, not sure about eurocup). since there's not time/willingness to make time, eurocup now goes all that way for one 20minute race. the 3.5 race was twice as long by default. the passes you get issued with kick you out of the circuit at midday on sunday. tough luck if your guests want to watch the big race from the general admission secteur rocher - in practice, not possible, but the gesture would cost them nothing. actually getting into the pitlane is fun too - you have a 15min max window to do so, after which it's tough luck. and whilst you're in there expect at least one row with someone telling you you can't be there, despite everyone in the teams having the same pass. especially if you're female.

tl;dr - you get treated like poo by the acm and fom, but at least the kids get to race at monaco before the f1 race. it's not really a great advert for competing in gp2/gp3 :/
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 09:54 (Ref:3705185)   #227
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Indeed it's not very good is it?

But crucially all we are talking about here is GP2 and GP3 which have about as much relevance to general motorsport as tractor pulling.

It goes back to my point that the local championships should be permitted to support the Grand Prix. For me things have gone downhill since they tried to make it a show with the same series at each event. Back in the day we had FFord, F3, F2 (F3000), sports cars etc. All running separate events and meetings. F2/F3000 was an international championship and like Formula 1 had its own headline events, which again were supported by the various local championships.

As such that kind of structure not only encouraged spectators, provided showcases for the local championships and also provided many and various routes for drivers to progress. The top down approach using Formula 1 as the be all and end all of motorsport has removed all of these opportunities hence we get GP3 and GP2 none of which have local equivalents.

So, going back to Silverstone's problem and Chunder's point. Yes the fans can and have walked, sadly they've been replaced with Bella's casual spectator who I suspect goes for the atmosphere rather than the racing.

That being the case it's no wonder that not only are the TV audiences reducing, the circuits are unable to sustain the increasing costs. Formula 1 is increasingly tedious. Whilst all the false devices for overtaking are designed to make it exciting, it fails in that aspiration.

As an example in 1988 McLaren had the Honda and Williams had the Judd V8. It was a no brainer that either Senna or Prost would win the British GP. Then it rained. I recall sitting in the Copse No.1 stand and being grit blasted by horizontal rain. During the race it began to dry, Senna was leading but gaining on him very quickly was a Williams driven by Mansell. We watched him weaving into the damp patches passing the pits to keep his tyres cool.

He didn't win, there was no overtaking but just watching the man and machine trying was excitement in itself. The race was followed by a BTCC race in which dear old Mike Smith stacked his BMW M3 in the barriers in front of our stand. Incidentally the stand remained full from the start of the GP to the end of the Touring Car race.

I'm not suggesting we should go back to the bad old days of variety and entertainment but even if I am looking through rose tints, it is plain to me that without the opportunity to run its own race meetings, no circuit will survive.
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 10:20 (Ref:3705188)   #228
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Remember when BTCC offered to have British F3 on it's support package? BF3 refused, saying it could survive on it's own, yet within a decade it died. Maybe it is time to have more national events together
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 10:33 (Ref:3705191)   #229
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Remember when BTCC offered to have British F3 on it's support package? BF3 refused, saying it could survive on it's own, yet within a decade it died. Maybe it is time to have more national events together
The F3 types with a self important prickle up their arse wanted the Garages - not really going to happen was it? Then, during the deepest recession for ages they decided to change cars ........
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 10:36 (Ref:3705192)   #230
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There is a pattern emerging here.
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 10:54 (Ref:3705199)   #231
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
There truly is, and it is sadly fairly common in motorsport.

You can see the business decision behind running two youth categories along with F1.

But, they are both fairly dull to watch as fans, the cars sound fairly boring and there is no variety. F3 was also very much like this, possibly the dullest sounding race cars ever made!

I like some of the ideas here, but since motorsport now is all about petty individuals who run series and you can't run here because of this, or you can't have garages, or whatever, is it any surprise that some aspects of what were the established order have totally fallen from grace.

There is now only one big car series in Britain and that is BTCC, you could get a crowd at a few more in the past. Internationally there is really only one series that matters and that is F1. WEC thinks id matters, but it only matters once a year.
Formula E is getting there but is massively funded and for fans is a one time thing, rarely are you going to watch that twice, but they have some great ideas.

So, it makes sense to group a few of these together for a huge festival with F1 at its peak.

Sadly, too many chiefs and all that, wanting their piece of an ever smaller pie. Greed is the ruin of most things in life.
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 12:38 (Ref:3705208)   #232
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Indeed it's not very good is it?

But crucially all we are talking about here is GP2 and GP3 which have about as much relevance to general motorsport as tractor pulling.

It goes back to my point that the local championships should be permitted to support the Grand Prix. For me things have gone downhill since they tried to make it a show with the same series at each event. Back in the day we had FFord, F3, F2 (F3000), sports cars etc. All running separate events and meetings. F2/F3000 was an international championship and like Formula 1 had its own headline events, which again were supported by the various local championships.

As such that kind of structure not only encouraged spectators, provided showcases for the local championships and also provided many and various routes for drivers to progress. The top down approach using Formula 1 as the be all and end all of motorsport has removed all of these opportunities hence we get GP3 and GP2 none of which have local equivalents.
This has been an interesting discussion over the last couple of days and without the personal comments about drivers etcetera that I find so irritating.

I do believe you have a major point here Mr Mallet. The F1 circus has included what used to be called F3 and F2 into their events probably to give the drivers and their connections a feeling that they are "getting there" and hope they will impress an F1 team. Silverstone and other circuits in the UK did in the past put on F2 races and attract good crowds and could include domestic championships to fill the bill. International F3 races were less prominent and British F3 was seen as an important series to win and the chance to perform at the GP was their only opportunity to impress the F1 teams.

By lumping all the ladder events into one circus FOM have taken away an opportunity for the big circuits to have a second major international single seater race and for the domestic championships to be on the same bill.

Having all the eggs in the same basket as it were
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 13:17 (Ref:3705212)   #233
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It'll be a worry for Silverstone should Hamilton decide to go and be a rap star instead of a racing driver. Many, many of the people I know that visit the GP are lured by the chance to see a British driver do well. Look at Germany - Vettel never had the draw of Schumacher and the numbers since then speak for themselves.

This is a very precarious business. If there were a good undercard attracting spectators in their own right to bolster the F1 Fans, it would give them a fighting chance going forwards. But without it - no Lewis, no profits.
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 13:25 (Ref:3705213)   #234
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By lumping all the ladder events into one circus FOM have taken away an opportunity for the big circuits to have a second major international single seater race and for the domestic championships to be on the same bill.

Having all the eggs in the same basket as it were
this existed up until the end of 2015 - it was called the world series by renault and had 3 european (or slightly european) single seater series on the bill. unfortunately renault withdrew their support for the headline act and it disintegrated which is a shame because i think it did a lot of good work introducing people to motorsport and making it financially accessible.

people seem to be overestimating the sustainability of the single seater scene. there's not enough drivers with enough money to be able to support these series, and there's clashes of interest between fom, fia and the germans and renault that mean that it's unlikely to change. fom didn't lump together anything - they own gp2, and created gp3 because they saw an opportunity to make more money regardless of whether an alternative already existed or not.
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 13:30 (Ref:3705214)   #235
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tpeople seem to be overestimating the sustainability of the single seater scene. there's not enough drivers with enough money to be able to support these series, and there's clashes of interest between fom, fia and the germans and renault that mean that it's unlikely to change. fom didn't lump together anything - they own gp2, and created gp3 because they saw an opportunity to make more money regardless of whether an alternative already existed or not.
Actually I don't think anyone is overestimating it. I think what I and others are saying is that it is part of a whole. Without the support of the other classes the top classes wither and die. Formula 1 was successful because you saw it in the context of the sport as a whole. Now it is seen as the whole of the sport. Emperor's new clothes if you will.

We see Liberty saying what they want to to improve F1. What we don't see is what they want to do to improve the sport. That, I feel is the crux of the matter. The one clearly can't exist without the others. It is losing money, it is over priced and it is definitely not very good anymore.
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 13:40 (Ref:3705217)   #236
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The other issue is now that a very well backed kid has jumped almost straight from karts into a F1 with a bunch of money behind him. And done well. People say iut was pure talent, hogwash, it was that and talent that got him there, no team manager would risk putting a kid straight from karts into F1 that easily. Without very good data and/or a lot of money.

If this starts to happen more, then the single seater scene is instantly rendered largely redundant as a ladder.

I agree that the F1 circus has been put together to try and prevent driver driving elsewhere to get into F1, but in reality, other than a few amazing talents like Lewis, Max, Vettel, Kimi, must come into F1 through money or a manufacturer based driver scheme.

Those teams used to have a team in FSR, F3, even FF2000 back in the day and certainly F3, F2/F3000 then.

They still exist, but only in the F1 circus, managed by people heavily involved with F1 or with very strong links to it.

As someone earlier said, an ever decreasing circle. Of rather dull looking and sounding identikit race cars. Not what Johnny Punter wants.

But sadly, what the same punter seems happy to pay and watch every year, odd folk huh!
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 13:54 (Ref:3705222)   #237
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I fully agree with you about the Renault series Bella but it fell because of the move back to F1 and my connections in the meeting when the pullout was announced were clear it was a requirement from FOM so that Renault could get the "heritage money" I believe was the term.

At the GP the GP2 and GP3 races can be good races and have that elusive noise level that spectators like. Those two races would make the basis of a good meeting on their own with the domestic events that we are discussing being on the same bill. We can not go back to the days when BTCC was the closing race to spread the time when spectators left Silverstone, Alan Gow and his team have made those meetings the best stand alone package in the UK but other touring and GT events could a added to GP2 and 3 to make a full and interesting programme.
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 13:58 (Ref:3705225)   #238
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The thing that attracted me to the Montreal Grand Prix, was the fact you could get a sensibly priced room in the City, walk to the nearest station and get a train straight to the circuit. How easy is that?

The thing that attracted me to Monaco was the WOW factor - being 8 floors up on the entrance to the first corner being able to see the Pit Exit,the Start + about another 3rd of the track with a screen in front of you for the rest. You don't get that at 'old airfields'. Worth every penny.

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Old 26 Jan 2017, 14:04 (Ref:3705228)   #239
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Thinking further about GP2 and 3, do we feel that having those races on the F1 bill adds anything to the gate at these meetings?

I suspect not and so as Liberty now own the rights to those events they could separate them from the package and ask for bids from circuit owners to run those events. I would go to Donnington or Brands to see GP2 and I suspect many circuits in Europe would be interested in such a deal. More income for both Liberty and the circuits.

Pie in the sky again I suppose
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 14:06 (Ref:3705229)   #240
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@ The Fat Clerk. Not the racing then?
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 14:12 (Ref:3705231)   #241
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Thinking further about GP2 and 3, do we feel that having those races on the F1 bill adds anything to the gate at these meetings?

I suspect not and so as Liberty now own the rights to those events they could separate them from the package and ask for bids from circuit owners to run those events. I would go to Donnington or Brands to see GP2 and I suspect many circuits in Europe would be interested in such a deal. More income for both Liberty and the circuits.

Pie in the sky again I suppose

But this is precisely what we are saying. Get these off the bill, give them their own series. Then permit the circuit owners to put what they like on the balance of the GP bill.
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 14:25 (Ref:3705237)   #242
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@ The Fat Clerk. Not the racing then?
Well Lewis winning and making Tosberg look sick did help
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 17:51 (Ref:3705283)   #243
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Is this the sort of support race you had in mind? It did include F1 drivers too


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Old 26 Jan 2017, 18:30 (Ref:3705290)   #244
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Local series should support the events. BTCC supporting the 1996 British GP was a great addition.
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Old 27 Jan 2017, 09:44 (Ref:3705504)   #245
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But BTCC is itself a "circus" type series that has found a very successful formula whereas in the days when it was part of the GP meeting it was single or double headed races per round. For it join in now it would have to be a sort of "super round" and I am not sure how that would work.

Of course if, as we are discussing, the GP2 and 3 races are taken out of the GP meeting to go elsewhere there is a big hole to fill. Could it be that the multi race format of a round of the BTCC is the way to do that?

All this pre-supposes that Liberty see their position as the problem and are willing to change their thinking.
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Old 27 Jan 2017, 09:54 (Ref:3705505)   #246
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But BTCC is itself a "circus" type series that has found a very successful formula whereas in the days when it was part of the GP meeting it was single or double headed races per round. For it join in now it would have to be a sort of "super round" and I am not sure how that would work.
I agree the "circus" format has been used to success with the BTCC but it does have much more diversity of grids, wtih GTs, Single Seaters and Tin Tops.

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Of course if, as we are discussing, the GP2 and 3 races are taken out of the GP meeting to go elsewhere there is a big hole to fill. Could it be that the multi race format of a round of the BTCC is the way to do that?
I think the BTCC, if given good billing, would still attend the GP with one race. Also we could expect to see Formula 4 and perhaps a sprint race for British GTs. The GP could go back to what it was intended to do and that is to provide a showcase for the local lesser formulae. Apart from Porches, the current format is entirely single seaters and frankly watching a bunch of slipstreaming bolides all day can get tedious. Diversity is what is needed.

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All this pre-supposes that Liberty see their position as the problem and are willing to change their thinking.
Yes, instead of "how can we improve F1" they need to think of how to improve the event.
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Old 27 Jan 2017, 10:37 (Ref:3705517)   #247
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But this is precisely what we are saying. Get these off the bill, give them their own series. Then permit the circuit owners to put what they like on the balance of the GP bill.
but they're owned by fom and created for the specific task of filling the support bill at grands prix. being realistic for just a split second, it's not going to happen for that specific reason. besides, dealing with the support series when you don't own them is very troublesome. they all have their own interests to protect and nobody wants to have to go back to their drivers and say "well we can race on the british gp support package but it's going to double your entry fee for the entire season".
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Old 27 Jan 2017, 10:44 (Ref:3705519)   #248
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but they're owned by fom and created for the specific task of filling the support bill at grands prix.
Agreed and that is the problem.


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Originally Posted by bella View Post
being realistic for just a split second, it's not going to happen for that specific reason. besides, dealing with the support series when you don't own them is very troublesome. they all have their own interests to protect and nobody wants to have to go back to their drivers and say "well we can race on the british gp support package but it's going to double your entry fee for the entire season".
If we continue to toe that particular line, none of these series will be around much longer. Which is the problem. The circuits can't sustain the rising costs against a background of limited income. Putting prices up to pay for a "show" that has such limited appeal is a sure fire way of going bankrupt.

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Old 27 Jan 2017, 13:45 (Ref:3705561)   #249
S griffin
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The BTCC tried to have a non championship support race in 2004, but the teams annoyingly vetoed it
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Old 27 Jan 2017, 18:46 (Ref:3705620)   #250
billy bleach
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
The BTCC tried to have a non championship support race in 2004, but the teams annoyingly vetoed it
I think you will find the teams declined due to the restrictions put upon them re sponsorship liveries, truck liveries, flags and other nit **** - why wouldn't they want to be there?
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