FIA: "Sauber C23 is not Ferrari copy"(merge)

[Sodemo]

It seems as though some teams have complained to the FIA accusing the Ferrari / Sauber arrangement to be illegal.

The story is at autosport.com

PS I tried to post pics of the 2 cars from identical corners at Barcelona but I had to shrink the files so small it was pointless as they just look like blobs.

[climb]

what a pity, I'd be very interested at those pics.

[Glen]

Have a look at the thread on the AtlasF1 Technical forum. The similarities are very striking - all of the general dimensions seem identical, and many details are duplicated too, such as size, shape and details on the sidepods. From the FIA's statement i'd judge that this was recognised in advance as a problem and they have proceeded in such a way as to ensure that they stay just within the letter of the rules.

[PaulSands]

If you look at the side profile diagram of both cars in thsi weeks Autosport they appear identical apart from the air box area

[Rennen]

Of course it's not the same!...the Red one is a Ferrari and the Blue one is...errrrr...a Ferrari!

[Sodemo]

OK here are those pics...

[Sodemo]

And now the Ferrari F2003GA...

[Sodemo]

Im sorry I had to crop both pictures severly to maintain detail levels and size.
Its spot the difference time!!

[PaulSands]

one is predominantly red and the other blue?

[Damon]

It's the same damn car!

[PaulSands]

I think there are as many similarities between these two and the Arrows and Shadow of 1978..admittedly cars tended to look more individual back then so two cars looking similar stuck out like a sore thumb.
Ferrari Internatioanl Assistance at work again ?

[Bononi]

The same car, the same engine, the same test drivers.


Looks like Sauber can win some races this season...

[903cc]

The red one is a Sauber.. Jokes aside. I cannot see anything that is different.

[PaulSands]

But of course they'd all be thrown out under protest
If the car was a secondhand Ferrari it's definitely against the rules but if it is merely a Ferrari designed car that was built in the Sauber plant how does that sit with the rules...I know you have to build your own but do you have to design it??
I suspect we havent heard the last of this and expect the legal stuff to begin shortly

[Damon]

It's a dodgy area. As this weeks Autosport has said, the difficulty for the others is to prove that it's an exact copy. It only needs a few bits to be slightly different for the car to fall within the the letter of the law.

However, this is yet another example of Ferrari pushing the the fair interpretation of the rules for their own gain. They've clearly helped Sauber in some way with this new car and in doing that they have a subservient team that won't beat them but are close enough to help them do development work with Bridgestone. In essence Ferrari will have 5 cars running in friday free practice and that is certianly against the spirt of the rules.

[PaulSands]

And they'll potentially be taking points away from other teams as if they were a third and fourth Ferrari

[Damon]

As I say it's an iffy one and typical of the current Ferrari regime really. When the chips are down just flout the rules, who cares what anyone else thinks or how it looks.

[Try Hard]

ok, I'm gonna put my chip in here. Bar the obvious differences due to the regs (engine cover and rear wing), there are only two visible differences (to my eye anyway) on the car. The airbox inlet looks to be slightly taller on the sauber, and also I'm pretty sure the nose on the sauber is slightly wider (it looks fatter than the ferrari).
There is slight differences in the front wing, as the elements are less extremely shaped on the sauber.
To be honest I think it's all in the details, as autosport report today, that the C23 has a 5cm shorter wheelbase. The general concepts are very similiar though.
Regards
Ed

[Damon]

I think it's the slight variation of the shot angle and the colour that's giving the impression of a wider front wing there Ed. Although I obviously couldn't say for sure.

[Inigo Montoya]

Usually, I am on the Ferrari side of the fence, and you all know how I feel about Fisico. But is this the first step towards standardized cars? This is bad.

[Redblurr]

There is a story that Ferrari are going to fund Sauber's third car on Friday testing

[Damon]

Another question mark is why Sauber have gone back to the single keel design after they were the ones that championed the advantage of the twin keel design in the first place. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that the F2003 was a single keel chassis .

[Mr V]

It's proberbly because Ferrari have the tyres designed for them and use a single keel, Sauber decided that the best way to make the Bridgestones work is if they had single keel too.

[Gt_R]

Quote:"I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that the F2003 was a single keel chassis"

Why not? It just makes the handling of the Sauber more similar to that of the Ferrari, hence, any tire information can be easily shared among both teams for more useful comparison.

Sauber understand that there isn't much way they could run much testings, to build a car that can work like a Ferrari would save them a lot of trouble and a great advantage to solve their limited resources problems.

And did anybody notice it is this year's Sauber similar to LAST year's Ferrari. There is really not much help if what you are doing is a year behind what the others are achieving. PLUS, Sauber had decided to build a simple car which has huge potential for aerodynamics improvements once their new tunnel is working at full steam.

Quote:"When the chips are down just flout the rules, who cares what anyone else thinks or how it looks."

And there's the problem with the critics ain't it? True, it's your opinions, but perhaps you can try explaining "flout the rules"? Which rule did they flout? Exploit the rules maybe, but flout? The dislike for Ferrari is getting to your judgement.

[Gt_R]

I'm disappointed that another team's car can actually be so similar because it takes a huge part of interest away from seeing new designs, but i don't think that warrants cries of cheats by anti-Ferrari camp who seems to just grab any chance they can to criticise.

Damon, nobody complains when all the Michelin teams share data to dictate tyre choices and developement. Ferrari also did NOT hide the fact that they had rendered assistance to Sauber (engines/gearbox/tyre data for a start). Everything that has happened so far is aboveboard and little reasons to let the doubts flood in.