For those with some time and an interest in the sim vs. reality question

[MaxxUK]

I posted a response to a thread in the Official GTR2002 forum (a mod for EAs F1-2002 game) which touched on the area of "How close to reality is the handling/physics in GTR2002". I though as there is much interest here in sim driving, 10 Tenths readers might be interested.

It was originally asking for posts from GTR drivers who had also raced in real life - I had, so posted. A couple of guys asked how real GTR physics felt plus I've been asked that same type of question by many of my GPL and sim racing buddies - so it was an ideal way to answer all those queries.

I've not driven GTR much but had come to some conclusion and over the next 3 weeks built up what became quite a large post. The points it makes are also relevant to GPL and GPL is mentioned in places. It has since been followed up by many questions and responses and has turned out to be quite an in-depth discussion of this topic which has also broadened out into a couple of other forums, West Racing and BHMS.

It was suggested to me that I might spread the word around a bit to those who might not read those forums and who might be "particularly" interested in this subject.

I will say that, if you have just a passing interest, or you don't have an hour or so to kill then it may not be for you as it's quite lengthy - but, I know it is an often debated subject here and seeing as there is lots of good info there (from all contributors) I thought "what the hell" even though I may have consigned myself to another few days worth of response posting.

The initial post is HERE (GTR2002 Official Forum at simbin.com). I pitch in on page 3 initially but my big post is on page 4.

It was picked up by someone and mentioned it HERE (General forum at West Racing) and there followed much comment.

I was also asked if I'd mind BHMS publishing it, I didn't and so it is also HERE with a few typo corrections and some reader responses.

Maxx

[Aysedasi]

Looks like quite a bit to take in, Maxx, but I'm sure there are plenty here to vouce an opinion (I know the GPL'ers are likely to have an opinion on "reality", as that quality is one of the most lauded aspects of GPL).

[pirenzo]

Bloody hell thats a BIG post, I can see what essentially what it is that you are saying.

having never raced a car (let alone driven one, still got one more year before I can!), I wouldn't hope to fully understand the flaws that sims have, but on some circuits i can go really quite fast but still be wildly off line, and in some cases off track.

My dad used to race in racing school races at Brands Hatch, and he has a penchant for driving fast on the road (particularly on the coutry lanes around where he grew up when we visit grandparents), and even from sitting in the back seat, you can still get a feeling of what the car is doing through the seat, which you cannot hope to get in a sim. Other problems I have with sims are the sort of things to do with racing towards something, viewed from a 2-dimensional perspective on a screen, and you simply have a seriously reduced sense of distance from things, and there is also a distinct lack of feeling from the brakes, so it becomes almost inevitable that you'll lock up the brakes.

Also there is a particular lack of any sense of what to do in a spin, meaning resorting to trying one thing afer another, and hoping not to spin, and even with experience it is still very hard to tell quite what is going on.

What I think really shows up the innacuracies is the amount of people that can drive GPL, or any other game very quickly, faster than the best of the time after just maybe one year of practice, and the comparitively few who can hope to do it in the real world

[gttouring]

Sure mate- the crop of sims and there on screen behaviour are done quite well- now having raced a bunch in real cars, at some track that i have on my GPL i might say that yes the physics are so real in as much that the car acts like i ould want it too, the seat of the pants feel is gone, it is only eyes and ears and hands on my wheel- so it is pretty good white knuckle stuff like formula fords, or formula vee.
However the loss of g's in the feel is a huge loss, so the reality ends there- i will say you can learn tremndous amounts from gpl specifically for real racing, set up and corner approach- but the bog brass ones you need to take a corner flat out is not the same, these won't grow in a game, most people won't drive in gpl all crazy so as not to deal with the frustration of crapping a lap. in the real world so much more feels like it is on the line that pushing harder here or there tends to grow in baby steps. try Autocrossing or club racing and then compare, we all know that there is nothing better than racing

[Aysedasi]

There is in evitably a limitation on sensation, as gttouring says, and as I've never raced for real myself, my own experience is sadly lacking, but the only sim I've experienced which comes close to realism (as I might expect it to be) is GPL, but you really need a force feedback wheel to experience it to the full. That's not just being bumped about when you hit something or a wheel falls off, it has a marked influence in terms of feel when cornering, braking and so on.

Of course, the fact that you're not going to kill yourself when you get it wrong through Masta at 180 mph does make a difference as well!

[pirenzo]

On the subject of force feedback, my wheel has an annoying "fishtail" force, so you go to powerslide, and you're put into a forced "fishtail" So fricking annoying, so i've got to stick to the return-to-centre feature.

[bella]

i find that road driving is so much easier than trying to drive on a game like gran turismo, it's so much easier to interact with your surroundings in reality, as realistic as the sims nowadays are...

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by pirenzo
On the subject of force feedback, my wheel has an annoying "fishtail" force, so you go to powerslide, and you're put into a forced "fishtail" So fricking annoying, so i've got to stick to the return-to-centre feature.

I think all FF wheels will do this, but it probably means that you have your FF forces set too high.

[pirenzo]

Irealised that, but i still hate it... That said, i haven't had it turned off for months.

[ASCII Man]

Force Feedback, wish i had that...

[pirenzo]

I managed without it for 4 years, and it hasn't brought about any great change in lap times. You'll get there without it anyway i should think

[Lee Janotta]

Hey, try doing it without linear input at all.

When I tried GPL, it ran so slowly on software emulation that, combined with the fact that I was driving with the keyboard, I couldn't get through a single corner without throwing the car well off the track. And while I'm not a racer, I feel I'm pretty damn good at 4-wheel drifting (you learn quickly if you to try to drive a rear-driver car briskley during a Cleveland winter. Lots of opposite-lock just in the daily commute.

I wonder if sometimes we don't confuse "difficult" with "realistic". Gran Turismo 2, as far as I'm concerned, is still pretty damn good, if not at teaching you how to race particular cars at particular tracks, at least how to control different types of cars at the ragged edge of out-of-control. Braking late while turning in aggressively still throws you into 4-wheel drift, Scandinavian flicks still make the car try to swap ends, putting the throttle down too hard still kicks out the back end... All the fundamentals are there. Which I honestly can't say about some Papyrus sims. My main complaint about them, though, is that there's almost no sensation of speed, which Sony actually got _very_ right.

Excellent article though, Maxx. _Very_ insightful.

[pirenzo]

I agree with you there Lee. They had it pretty good in GT1 (my favorite), but i got the feeling GT2 had outgrown the playstation controllers. As for GT3, man was i disappointed, it was ****. It urned off all the aids and was still unable to get rid of the built in understeer.

[Aysedasi]

I couldn't contemplate driving GPL now without FF. I had a sensation of it in the league race at Spa when, I believe, my FF failed, for some reason. Obviously, as I hadn't experienced it for a long time, it felt loose and undriveable. There is no doubt in my mind that FF does help your times. Its not just a question of the wheel thumping around when you hit the barriers at Monaco or the trees at Rouen, its the sensation you feel under braking, acceleration, cornering, everything. If anyone is thinking of buying a new wheel, it really must have FF.

[rdjones]

Having now download GT2002 for EA F1 2002, I have only had chance to have quick go on it, I found it, compared to GPL very difficult. That just my first thought on it.

[DavidStHubbins]

In Grand Turismo games its amazing how much time you can find from setting up the car perfectly. Like 3-4 seconds merely by sorting out all the suspension and all the complicated things (cant remember their names!). Thats true in real racing, if its not setup right then you are on a hiding to nought. I know a lot of sims have got that aspect dead on.

But you cant beat the feeling of bombing round a great track in a single-seater, wind in yer face, vibrations tru yer bum, menacing barriers looming, cold tyres, smell of clutch and tyres, screaming engine behind your head, and that great feeling at the end of a long straight when you are going so fast the wind is trying to rip your head off! Good fun.

[pirenzo]

The only problem with the GT games is when you hit something, the car remains perfectly shiny, undented, and perfect really. Then you can brush off your day's exploits with a 10Cr carwash

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by DavidStHubbins
But you cant beat the feeling of bombing round a great track in a single-seater, wind in yer face, vibrations tru yer bum, menacing barriers looming, cold tyres, smell of clutch and tyres, screaming engine behind your head, and that great feeling at the end of a long straight when you are going so fast the wind is trying to rip your head off! Good fun.

I don't think you'll ever get that in _any_ sim!

[Aysedasi]

True, but GPL is the nearest you'll get.