Is it time for Seth to give away the driving?

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by arakis

insted of bashing any gentelman drive, acept the fact that no mater how fast the car is in the hands of the pros, that car will never be in it for a win, and simply erase it form your mental entry list, in other words don't get your hopes up when Berg posts best laps, and pole positions, just forget about that car

You could do that if there was a surplus of great driver/car combinations. DP's are not 10-12 deep with Professional full time teams, unlike ALMS GT-E. But there's always a concern about a Pro Am driver being in a position to take out a competitors car that was challenging for a podium position, which happen when Seth successfully took out a majority of Porsche's Le Mans effort IN ONE CORNER, I think that was 2009.

Plus I think the fan base likes Jorg and Pat Long to much to see them suffer much so they give them moral support. In other words manufactured drama...

[MJ_N_09]

Hmm.....as someone who got heavy criticism in the past for speaking out against Neiman, I think the TC has guts. Makes me wonder though: as much as we complain about guys like Neiman, is Tucker worse? I mean, we all know how he won the LMPC championship last year.....

[rich07]

Originally Posted by WMUCarGuy

I think it really comes down to ego. Sure Seth could probably drive circles around any of us, but with him in a Flying Lizard race car, his team stands almost no chance of success in an enduro. He needs to put his ego aside, assume a team manager role and put ALL pros in his cars for the enduros because the other 3 drivers in that car this weekend are bonafide winners and could have taken the car the distance.

True. Got nothing against the guy but the three other guys in the car on the weekend could've done it without him. Could've taken one for the team..

If they ran two cars and put the Three Wise Men in the first car and then put Seth in the second car with some other drivers (whether they be pro or am) that would be a good compromise. Seth gets to race on without affecting the A-team in the all pro car. Everyone's happy.

But then one has to find the money to run two cars.........

As much as I'd love to see him not ruining it for the pros I have to remind myself that he's not the worst gentleman driver out there-things could be worse.

[Accident]

Originally Posted by arakis

insted of bashing any gentelman drive, acept the fact that no mater how fast the car is in the hands of the pros, that car will never be in it for a win, and simply erase it form your mental entry list, in other words don't get your hopes up when Berg posts best laps, and pole positions, just forget about that car

I see your point, but isn't that really a shame to have to do that? Bergmeister and Long are pretty popular drivers, it's not so easy for fans to just pretend they aren't racing.

As for the comment posted above about Neiman being the one to bring the team and all that... If he took his money and left, we would lose a backmarker, but I'd be willing to bet that Porsche would be able to find another team willing to field a competitive car with factory drivers.

Personally, I don't really care for GT Porsches and what Neiman chooses to do with his team in the ALMS doesn't matter much to me. If he wants to putt around in last place in his car while the other car stays competitive, then that's fine. I just don't like seeing him field a single entry in a major race (Rolex 24 OR Le Mans), then proceed to ruin all the hard work done by his excellent team and their great car COMPLETELY USELESS because he wants to get his name put up on timing and scoring.

[R4z3rw33n]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Plus I think the fan base likes Jorg and Pat Long to much to see them suffer much so they give them moral support. In other words manufactured drama...

Hasn't Joerg competed at the last two LM24 events without backing from the factory (i.e. as a free agent)?

If that is indeed the case, he's a little more satisfied with the scenario than we've given him credit for.

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by R4z3rw33n

Hasn't Joerg competed at the last two LM24 events without backing from the factory (i.e. as a free agent)?

Yes, Joerg chose to run with Seth for the last 2 years at le mans, he was offered other choices by Porsche but turned them down.

[cthib10]

I have to admit I was screaming at the tv when he wrecked the car twice in 1 stint to ruin the fastest car on the track! I just don't understand why he put an all star team in that car if he intended on driving as well. I don't mind that he drives his car but why waste such talent by putting two amazing drivers in the car with you...

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

You could do that if there was a surplus of great driver/car combinations. DP's are not 10-12 deep with Professional full time teams, unlike ALMS GT-E. But there's always a concern about a Pro Am driver being in a position to take out a competitors car that was challenging for a podium position, which happen when Seth successfully took out a majority of Porsche's Le Mans effort IN ONE CORNER, I think that was 2009.

Plus I think the fan base likes Jorg and Pat Long to much to see them suffer much so they give them moral support. In other words manufactured drama...

i believe it was further back maybe 06 when the panoz won. he took out the felbermayr i believe.

Originally Posted by MJ_N_09

Hmm.....as someone who got heavy criticism in the past for speaking out against Neiman, I think the TC has guts. Makes me wonder though: as much as we complain about guys like Neiman, is Tucker worse? I mean, we all know how he won the LMPC championship last year.....

!ell guess what sir were talking about seth neiman today!

Originally Posted by rich07

True. Got nothing against the guy but the three other guys in the car on the weekend could've done it without him. Could've taken one for the team..

If they ran two cars and put the Three Wise Men in the first car and then put Seth in the second car with some other drivers (whether they be pro or am) that would be a good compromise. Seth gets to race on without affecting the A-team in the all pro car. Everyone's happy.

But then one has to find the money to run two cars.........

As much as I'd love to see him not ruining it for the pros I have to remind myself that he's not the worst gentleman driver out there-things could be worse.

O.K we can make rounds on all the gentleman drivers if you like which is clearly what you support by saying we should bash some other gentleman driver or we can support thhe fact that this thread is for seth neiman and the fact that its not only a bad gentleman driver in a car. its a bad one in the quickest car in the field.

Originally Posted by R4z3rw33n

Hasn't Joerg competed at the last two LM24 events without backing from the factory (i.e. as a free agent)?
If that is indeed the case, he's a little more satisfied with the scenario than we've given him credit for.

Jeorg is factory. He has quite a compelling story including being coached by michael schumacher when he was young and you should take a look at how hard he drove just to prove to porsche that he should be a factory driver. I think at one point he was a factory driver then he got fired then he got hired again.

[Audi Racer]

This isn;t even a a discussion. you guys are arguing that gentleman drivers are right in what they do. Is it not logic to you that if you are the one who makes the team spend money on so many repairs you need to take one for your own team. You know thats the worst part. He's blowing his own money by crashing the car and causing expensive rebuilds. You just have that stinking feeling that if joerg or pat were in the car they would not have driven the car off the track in when they saw those gt cars spinning.

Year after year people insist on going off track at daytona. Year after year it has been proven that your car will not survive a dirt tracking session at daytona. people never learn.

[Audi Racer]

You know short solution. Joerg Bermeister and Patrick Long please go join the felbermayr proton team for Lemans this year. Maybe even get TRG to run a team for you guys and johannes van overbeek.

No one here can argue that if Joerg Bergmeister, Patrick Long, and Johannes van Overbeek walked up to porsche motorsport headquarters and said, Give us a 911, pitcrew, mechanics, and race engineer. Porsche would do it. they know that that car is an automatic contender for the win.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

But there's always a concern about a Pro Am driver being in a position to take out a competitors car that was challenging for a podium position, which happen when Seth successfully took out a majority of Porsche's Le Mans effort IN ONE CORNER, I think that was 2009.

2008, coming-together with the IMSA Matmut Porsche at Indianapolis after less than 3 hours. That one retired on the spot, the Lizards' car limped to the pits and finished way down after a long rebuild, and that was 2 out of 3 chances for Porsche wiped out there and then. In '09 it wasn't Seth who was driving when the car crashed out though, it was one D. Law.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

You know short solution. Joerg Bermeister and Patrick Long please go join the felbermayr proton team for Lemans this year. Maybe even get TRG to run a team for you guys and johannes van overbeek.

No one here can argue that if Joerg Bergmeister, Patrick Long, and Johannes van Overbeek walked up to porsche motorsport headquarters and said, Give us a 911, pitcrew, mechanics, and race engineer. Porsche would do it. they know that that car is an automatic contender for the win.

I can argue that no, Porsche would not. That's not at all how this business works. Trust me, if that were true, Johannes would be first in line (since the other two are full-time employees, it's not an issue for them. They'll go where they are sent.) A comment earlier that Joerg "turned down" a factory drive at Le Mans to partner Seth is incorrect. Factory drivers are assigned drives, but in special circumstance have some input. That story is true only to the extent that Joerg would prefer to stay with his Championship-winning owner/team from the ALMS. He was still a factory driver for whom the receiving team has only to pay expenses - not fee/salary.

Felbermayr Proton is interesting only if neither Felbermayre drives.

[WolfsburgRS]

Although it's a bummer when a team-owner / driver takes their own team out of contention by some sort of bone-headed move or with a general lack of driving talent and yet keeps getting behind the wheel, who here could honestly say they'd do any different? That is, we're all racing fans and more specifically sports car fans, and I'm sure we'd all be first in line to run a car (and drive it) if we could bankroll it.

It's easy to play the roll of arm-chair quarterback and say what Seth (or any other owner / driver) should do, but if we were in their shoes with the means and the dreams, who's to say we shouldn't be behind the wheel? Sports car racing has always hung its hat on the door of the rich and those with the means and desire to run the cars, whether they're great or merely passable in terms of driving talent. Gregg, Akin, Busby, Dyson, Henn, Moretti, Tullius, Holbert, the list goes on. Those who are owner / drivers that really love the sport fully will step out of the driver's seat and into the manager's position when the time comes (Holbert, Dyson Sr, Joest, Penske, etc) - but the rest simply disband the team when they get tired of spending the money, trying to compete with factory entries, accomplish their goals, whatever.

Say what you will about gentleman drivers, but they do seem to be a more easily sustainable resource when it comes to getting cars on the grid. Factory entries can come and go, they have shareholders to please and answer to, and they can afford to drive the cost of competition out of reach of the owner / drivers when they want, but keeping a good supply of moneyed amateurs in the mix is a great way to keep sportscar racing around long-term. Rich guys or the well-connected can spend money based on their whims, not whether or not the stock is up or down 1/4 point.

There are a lot of places people can decide to spend their money, I'm glad some of them spend it in professional sports cars rather than tooling around in PCA or in Ferrari challenge, because I sure can't afford to do it, and I really do enjoy watching it and going to the races.

[R4z3rw33n]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

Jeorg is factory. He has quite a compelling story including being coached by michael schumacher when he was young and you should take a look at how hard he drove just to prove to porsche that he should be a factory driver. I think at one point he was a factory driver then he got fired then he got hired again.

My point was that Bergmeister, having not been commissioned by Porsche for the LM drive, drove for FLM during those two years, regardless.
Obviously he's satisfied with the scenario.

Joerg's ability is not being disputed.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

I don't know why this discusion keeps coming up, its none of our buisness its his team, he pays the bills, he can do what the hell he likes, we may not like it that his pace looses the team races but that's the way it is.

I'm with you.

Seth will give up driving when he chooses to. Simple as that and it's got naff all to do with any of us. Tosh about somehow owing it to the fans? Are we serious here?

Close to closing this one as being pointless.

[JAG]

Hitting out at the likes of Nieman, Tucker, Pickett etc. suggests your scraping the bottom of the barrel when it comes to looking for targets for your frustrations.

These guys are playing their role in sportscar racing like so many owner/drivers before them, those letting the side down are manufacturers and major road racing teams who seem indiffferent at best towards the ALMS's very survival.

Pickett could be the catalyst to bring Aston Martin as a factory squad to the ALMS, Nieman's team has kept Porsche competitive in GT2, Tucker has shown himself willing to invest in news cars and kick-start P2. Meanwhile in Europe Drayson could become a fully fledged constructer and Leventis could oversea Strakka becoming Honda's factory P1 representative.

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

2008, coming-together with the IMSA Matmut Porsche at Indianapolis after less than 3 hours. That one retired on the spot, the Lizards' car limped to the pits and finished way down after a long rebuild, and that was 2 out of 3 chances for Porsche wiped out there and then. In '09 it wasn't Seth who was driving when the car crashed out though, it was one D. Law.

The 2008 coming together with Pat Long in the IMSA Porsche was Pat's fault, he admitted so.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

The 2008 coming together with Pat Long in the IMSA Porsche was Pat's fault, he admitted so.

Yeah, I was just clarifying when and where it happened.

[Adam43]

Is it more arrogant to chose who should race when you own a team or when you post on an internet forum?

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I'm with you.

Seth will give up driving when he chooses to. Simple as that and it's got naff all to do with any of us. Tosh about somehow owing it to the fans? Are we serious here?

Close to closing this one as being pointless.

This is starting to annoy me a bit. Just because you as a moderator disagree with a point of view, I don't see any reason to wave your big stick, and start to make threats. The discussion on this topic, as I originally said in post #1 says this, however as the guy is now getting older and slower, the topic is now more relevant. As fans (and the ALMS in the administrators words, is all about the fans)we still have a say in what we see on the track, so unless anybody gets abusive or nasty I can't see what the problem is, and I'm not attacking the poster here, just the point you are making and the way you have made it.

[Aysedasi]

I stand by my comments, whether that annoys you or not. If I got annoyed at every comment here I disliked I'd been in my grave by now. I maintain the question for debate here is largely irrelevant - because the question itself has to be looked at pretty closely as to who is entitled to decide whether 'it is time'... us or Seth.

But then I guess we debate irrelevance all over the board here daily, so fire away - but I still can't believe you seriously feel that as fans we're entitled to influence what a team owner wants to do with his own team. If I was Seth, you bet I'd be racing - and I'll lay odds on a goodly proportion of those here would if they only had the same chance.

[Adam43]

[mod comment]If you have a real objection to a mod then feel free to contact another mod or email the admin to air your concerns. Whinging in threads is not the way to conduct this. The impression it gives is just of someone who wants to whinge. About team owners or mods.

It also detracts from the subject in hand.

Please note that despite Aysedasi's objection to the thread it remains open. He didn't close it.

I guess if we stay off topic then the thread might as well be closed.[/mod]

[Audi Racer]

Wow guys i am in love with this new LM GTE pro and LMGTE Am format. You guys don't understand. We as fans just wanna close wheel to wheel racing with guys going for the win and not wrecking. If you don;t know please reference the wheel to wheel the the risi ferrari and the gm corvette had for multiple laps at lemans last year. that stuff is amazing.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by Adam43

[mod comment]If you have a real objection to a mod then feel free to contact another mod or email the admin to air your concerns. Whinging in threads is not the way to conduct this. The impression it gives is just of someone who wants to whinge. About team owners or mods.

It also detracts from the subject in hand.

Please note that despite Aysedasi's objection to the thread it remains open. He didn't close it.

I guess if we stay off topic then the thread might as well be closed.[/mod]

Why. Thats tyranny. This is a perfectly relevant argument especially since the rolex 24 just happened and we all saw what seth neiman did. If you moderators really don't like the topic then don't join in the discussion. Were having a discussion here.

As far as im concerned this off topic comment would have never been created if you mods didn't prove to me that this forum does not allow disagreements. YOu mods going around brandishing your sticks with big threats sickens me. It reminds me of some really bad people a.k.a hitler, nero, soviet.

[Adam43]

You've played the Hitler card. Thread closed.

The idea of my post was
1. To point out that the thread remained open for discussion.
2. To point out that if you have a problem then to raise it in the correct manner. In fact it was inviting you to do this!

Lets be clear about this. The subject matter is not out of bounds here. It is a rare subject that is. However, as people as getting all worked up about off topic commie nazis, or something, then we have no hope of discussing the real topic. Lets leave it a bit we can all calm down and then I'm sure this threads real topic will come up again after a suitable break.