New Safety Car Regs

[Alan Crook]

From the Mallory Park training day people were being made aware of the new safety car regs for this year. When the SC board and yellow flag come out at the startline they now go out in both directions on all marshals posts. When the green is shown at the startline it also goes in both directions on marshals posts. Cars however are still not allowed to overtake until they reach the startline.

Should be fun for Post Chiefs (Observers) as they will now be reporting overtaking under a green flag !!!!

[blueoval2]

Also the green flag is now waved not stationary i do not know if we wave the green flag on a green flag lap.

[Nighthawk]

Just got hold of my 2009 Blue Book did notice flsg rules and safety car changes...

[Alan Crook]

I agree regs are not in Blue book thats why everyone should be made aware. As for green flags I understand there may be further discussion on stationary/waved. As I understand it for normal green flag laps flag will be stationary as normal.

[Nighthawk]

yes Alan just had a scan of book no mention of Regs

[Grandslammer]

Both directions with the SC and yellows is a good move,think there's overkill on the greens though imo,just show it at the startline

[Nighthawk]

I can not make a training day this year....Is there anywhere or anyone who can let me know the new regs?

[John Newman]

I have a copy of the "new" SC regs and will be putting them up on
http://www.flag-marshal.org.uk soon. The reason for the delay is that the set sent to me only includes the activation and deactivation of the Safety Car as a result of an incident. The sections refering to starting and stopping a race under the safety car appear not to have been addressed. I have asked the question and have not yet received an answer.
As a result of this thread I shall try and post what I do have on to the site today.

[AndyCox]

Originally Posted by Alan Crook

Cars however are still not allowed to overtake until they reach the startline.

This may be the intention, but not the wording as this was discussed at length at the Clerk Seminar the day before. Cars may overtake after they pass the green flag, but no mention of "at the start line". If taken literally you could see cars overtaking after passing a green at the post before the startline whilst the leaders may still not be able to overtake.

If this isn't sorted, watch out for some real fun at the starts...

[chezza]

Ohh this is certainly going to make re-starts entertaining. These new rules were only ratified in mid-end of jan, which is why they're not in the blue book.

[Startline Ed]

Originally Posted by AndyCox

This may be the intention, but not the wording as this was discussed at length at the Clerk Seminar the day before. Cars may overtake after they pass the green flag, but no mention of "at the start line". If taken literally you could see cars overtaking after passing a green at the post before the startline whilst the leaders may still not be able to overtake.

If this isn't sorted, watch out for some real fun at the starts...

3.14.12 states "Overtaking remains strictly forbidden until the start signal is passed." In my mind that means the startline green flag, but I may be mistaken.

[SWCRacing]

From my understanding this is to bring the MSA Safety car regs into line with the FIA regs.
Regardsing the green flag, the FIA regs state that the green flag will be displayed when the safety car, after it has switched its lights out, is approaching the pit lane. Not ideal, but not as bad as I first thought
I believe the MSA regs are also not official yet because of the green flag confusion

[Woolley]

massively pleased at the yellows/SC boards both ways, which I think is a big benefit for safety. Personally, I think the green is unnecessary on posts, but I think from what is being said above, the green won't be displayed at the start line until the leading car arrives ready for racing, at which point it will go out at all other posts by line of sight.

In other words, you'll have yellows at the posts before the start line up until the moment that the green is shown on start line. The following cars will not see a green until after it has been shown to the leaders.

Which means the probably loan marshal will simultaneously put down the board and the yellow and wave (display?) the green while looking both ways at once to see the green being withdrawn on one side and ensuring no-one starts overtaking too soon on the other side! Probably immediately afterwards putting down the green and getting the yellow out again, but that's drivers for you!

All in all, a step in the right direction. Now can anyone confirm that this will be adopted by:

a) all clubs, ensuring that rules are not different for each meeting.
b) all classes (including BTCC/GT/F3), ensuring that rules are not different from race to race.
c) by FIA.

OK, that last may be a fantasy...

[John Newman]

As promised earlier the revised Safety Car regs (as far as we have) are now on http://www.flag-marshal.org.uk As a few of you have pointed out they do raise a few questions, but I am pleased that they have been blessed with brevity.
The real task is for the MSA and others make certain that the Clerks fully understand them so that they can give confident, informed and accurate briefings.

[SWCRacing]

The changes to the safety car regs have been included in the 2009 F3 regs on the BARC website
Again, only going on what I understand from the MSA seminar, one of the main reasons in implementing and formalising the regs to the FIA standard was to get away from different clubs / organisers running differing safety car regs

[John Newman]

But that was why they introduced the last set in 2004!

[Andrew Palmer]

To add to the obsevers problem car's should be no more than 5 car lengths apart.

A full grid of Jag XJ's five lenghts apart on some circuits is a track fully of Jag's.

So where is the gap in traffic in which marshals have to work in which is the main reason for the Safety Car?

[Burnsie]

Originally Posted by Alan Crook

...When the SC board and yellow flag come out at the startline they now go out in both directions on all marshals posts...

No more racing to the line then, which can only be a good thing from a safety point of view. I agree with AndyCox about the wording for the re-start procedure though, it needs to be made a bit clearer. What would be wrong with displaying yellows and SC boards in both directions, but only displaying greens in race direction? Would that not get rid of the confusion?

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Woolley

massively pleased at the yellows/SC boards both ways, which I think is a big benefit for safety.

How do drivers confronted with SC boards & waved yellows at every post know where the incident is & when they are catching up with the 'train'? Two pieces of vital safety information...

Which means the probably loan marshal

'Loan' as in 'borrowed'?

[Peter Harding]

There is no mention of a second yellow allowed so, if another car stops, we can't warn drivers as all yellow flag are already waved.

Also -- if a car stops a bit before the start as we are about to restart, should the post involved show the Yellow or the green or both.

If they don't propogate the green it wont go round and if they don't show the yellow the drivers are not warned of the stopped car. Guess that means we show both???

[Alan Green]

I was typing a long reply about second yellows and stuff, but then lost it, and Pete has summed it up quite nicely.

I raised it as a point at Mallory that a 2nd yellow should be used, but after thinking about it I thought why? - it's a full course yellow, with or without a safety car on track, the drivers should(!) be slowing and in full control of their vehicles, do you really need the second yellow to tell them that the cloud of dust and gravel and orange-suited persons in front of them is the cause for it?

A vehicle stopped wholly or partial on the track is a different matter (and I'm not sure if that is being picked up and brought forward from the FIA rules), but it would help to use double yellows here as as it's potentially a much more serious problem if drivers come around unaware.

Agreed the green flag restart needs review, as the FIA regs don't specify both directions, although I think it is up to the series SRs to specify and stress that overtaking will not resume until the car has crossed the line.

[Alan Green]

One other thing that came up at Mallory with this, and may cause issues, is that in the case of the startline being blocked, the safety car may lead the train through the pit lane.

However, unless the SRs say differently, cars will be allowed to make pit stops. In races with mandatory pit stops this will be ideal if it's within the window, as it's basically a free stop. However, there is the risk then of the SC & train entering the pit stop, leading them through, SC exits with hardly anyone behind him as they've all stopped. The SC can't stop & wait for them if someone has stayed out, so you end up with the SC going round more or less alone for the best part of a lap, and you end up with the farce of the hare not catching the tortoise.

Final point on this (again raised at Mallory), it's ok if the pack is together behind the SC when he leads them into the pits, but what about stragglers? - At the GP we have an arrow board for Woodcote Approach to indicate to use the pit lane (and the team-to-car radios to tell drivers), but will all circuits need a point with a 'pit in' type board to show to the drivers to let them know?

And no-one mention Castle Combe or Cadwell pit lanes

[speedy jon]

Originally Posted by Peter Harding

There is no mention of a second yellow allowed so, if another car stops, we can't warn drivers as all yellow flag are already waved.

why cant we if there is more than one flaggy have a double waved yellow to warn the drivers the next sector has a hazard ie us marshals out on track or of a car stopped.i know at the moment there is no mention of a second yellow allowed but it would be a bit daft if we was out on track with no extra cover.

just a thought

[RIXGE]

All too confusing for me, when it should really be a simple solution, after all, were the boys and girls that really know what flags we should be showing.
The double waved yellow to indicate to a driver that there is a serious incident in the sector while the SC is out, is imo a very productive use of the flag, there are many corners, blind crests etc were this should be used.
I dont think for one moment that a flag marshal will be scrutinized for using some common sense.

[TwoSheds]

Originally Posted by Alan Green

Agreed the green flag restart needs review, as the FIA regs don't specify both directions, although I think it is up to the series SRs to specify and stress that overtaking will not resume until the car has crossed the line.

Just to clear this point up I believe the FIA regs say that the Green Flags will be displayed simultaneously at all posts. Of course this is only possible at FIA meetings where us flaggies are on a radio net and can be informed of when to do it.