Safety Car Periods - the Regs, theory and Practice

[Peter Mallett]

We were told at the briefing that the SC would pick up the first cars past the pits rather than chase down/wait for the leader. This is because it was considered quicker and therefore better for track safety and clearance. These are the new MSA rules and as we know, nothing is perfect. It did mean that I lost a big lead over the next car (that TR).

[John Turner]

Well, if that is so, in practice it didn't work. The first safety car period in the Oldies but Goldies race had the opposite effect, and delayed matters, and the second one during your race deprived us of a potential race for lead and obviously affected some of the race positions. I cannot understand why you would want to pick up anyone but the leader, because even though it may allow slower cars to catch up, it:-

1) Keeps the cars in the positions they were when the safety car was deployed
2) Ensures that the leading cars don't gain an even greater advantage (lead)
3) Prevents the lead cars from travelling at a pace that is probably greater than they would go behind the safety car and are therefore inevitably travelling quicker that they should when they are passing the scene of the incident causing the SC period. In fact they could easily come upon the backmarkers, and when finally they are again released to race, have to negotiate through them. What is safer about any of that? And I can't see much in the way of time saving either. You can probably draw your own conclusions of my view of this change.

[Peter Mallett]

The point is that the SC is only there to control the crocodile. All cars on the circuit should slow down to allow the crocodile to catch up, at least that's my understanding. None of us are allowed to return to racing speed until we cross the start/finish line after the SC has pulled off. It changes if cars are waved past the SC because then the hazard has been cleared and racing speeds can be attained for those who need to get to the rear of the crocodile. Although they still cannot overtake.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

The point is that the SC is only there to control the crocodile. All cars on the circuit should slow down to allow the crocodile to catch up, at least that's my understanding. None of us are allowed to return to racing speed until we cross the start/finish line after the SC has pulled off. It changes if cars are waved past the SC because then the hazard has been cleared and racing speeds can be attained for those who need to get to the rear of the crocodile. Although they still cannot overtake.

At the grave risk of sounding condiscending, if only more drivers had that much understanding and appreciation of the safety car concept, we would have a much better success rate in its' deployment.

[simon drabble]

but John is correct - if the safety car comes out between two cars competing for position the lead car can end up putting virtually a lap on the second car by joining the back of the snake.

[johngee]

Yes Simon, of course that is the case to which there is no answer. In the USA, where the use of safety cars predates ours by many years (and thus where, in general, it works rather more successfully), it's just accepted that life ain't fair and when Mario Andretti lost out big time, on one occasion, in such a scenario he just shrugged and said "you win some - you lose some". I will say, as a general comment (and not applying to this race meeting) that greater effort should be made to 'pick up' the leader and thus reduce, as much as possible, the resulting 'unfairness'

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by johngee

Yes Simon, of course that is the case to which there is no answer. In the USA, where the use of safety cars predates ours by many years (and thus where, in general, it works rather more successfully), it's just accepted that life ain't fair and when Mario Andretti lost out big time, on one occasion, in such a scenario he just shrugged and said "you win some - you lose some". I will say, as a general comment (and not applying to this race meeting) that greater effort should be made to 'pick up' the leader and thus reduce, as much as possible, the resulting 'unfairness'

a theory that works when all cars are of approximately the same speed.... whilst it is never perfect surely picking up the leader is the fairest way - at least then when it peels off there is still a race....

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

whilst it is never perfect surely picking up the leader is the fairest way - at least then when it peels off there is still a race....

We are going off topic here but the flag signals have also changed because they now show all round the track but go back as well as forwards. Therefore all drivers should be aware that the SC is deployed at roughly the same time and thus speeds reduced. I think the theory here is the improved protection of marshals (as it always was) and therefore this change is meant to ensure that everyone is slowed whether behind the SC or not. It does rely on cooperation from the drivers too.

[simon drabble]

Peter it doesn't stop the leading car putting a lap on the car at the front of the snake if it is ahead.. its nothing to do with speed

[Peter Mallett]

Well it is, because it's supposed to slow down!

[simon drabble]

I know but if the pace car picks up the chain at teh scond place car the lead car is fully entitled to go round faster than the snake to be able to join the snake... at the back but almost a lap up on the second place car now leading the snake.
This will always happen somewhere down teh field if the race is sufficiently advanced to have back markers being lapped but if it is the leading cars it rather kills the race for the speccy

[John Turner]

I think the issue from my point of view is that the theory is not achieved in practice, which is really the point, I think, that John was really alluding to in his comments. It certainly didn't work well last Saturday. The reality was as Simon described it; not a surprise really that some racing drivers (at any level) don't slow down sufficiently; they'll slow as little as they can get away with. It'll be noticeable but not by enough, and if the SC period goes on for too long, their pace starts to rise. You're right, Simon about it killing the racing for the spectators, but surely it does so for the competitors, too.

Should we split this discussion off to a new thread?

[simon drabble]

Sure but the objective is surely to create one snake so the people working on the track know whenits gone by the track is clear. For that reason I was always led to belive you can drive faster than the SC in order to catch the snake - so long as you are in front of it.

[Peter Mallett]

I didn't suggest its right, but SC's are never fair anyway, no matter what rules are in place.

[John Turner]

True, Peter, true! Just feel this latest change is unfairer still, that's all!

[Peter Mallett]

I guess the trouble is, as one who's been in it, I can't see a difference. But I understand the logic, it gets control of the race earlier. If the lead drivers don't cooperate then the whole thing fails from a competition aspect.

[John Turner]

Yep, absolutely.

[jerryk]

Just remember why the saftey car is there and what are the alternatives.
to give an amount of safety to somebody or somebodys car that are in a dangerous situiation or even more important a marshall .If an accident has occured on the track speedy action is required and it can not always be possible to plan where the saftey car comes out. we all saw what happened with the yellow flags when the car lost a wheel , after a few laps nobody took any notice. The only alternative is a red flag and probably a shortened race.

[terence]

Exactly Jerry,if drivers could be trusted to slow down to a half decent pace and maintain their respective positions,the SC would not be needed,much the same as everything else in that ideal world that we all wish we lived in.Now,what does Safety Car mean Peter?Lets not forget the incident at Spa last year in one of the GT rounds,one of the leading cars came round into Stave lot,which at that speed,the exit is blind,and managed to drive OVER the SC,a Lambo!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Exactly Jerry,if drivers could be trusted to slow down to a half decent pace and maintain their respective positions,the SC would not be needed,much the same as everything else in that ideal world that we all wish we lived in.

Don't forget that the safety car isn't just there to slow cars down - an important function is to get the cars into one 'train' so that marshals working trackside know that they have a sizeable gap in traffic in which to work. One of the big problems with safety car use is the numpty half a lap behind the leader who slows down & causes another group of cars to bunch up behind him - get a couple of these & the benefit of using the safety car is more or less negated.

[simon drabble]

Dave exactly the point I was making,... which is why any car infront of the SC is encouraged to get a wiggle on to join the back of the snake hence the original comments about the lead car should lead the snake not be allowed to join the back of it

[delta]

What happend to that black and white quarterd flag where the leader acted as the safty car. Get that idea to work and all the above probs would be answered.When we ran Radicals one of my drivers was leading at Donnington and there was a SC period with these flags he did a great job bunching up the cars so much that the Cof the C came down and thanked him. By the way he was a bllooming quick driver and a nut case and got jumped at the restart finnishing 2nd.,

[johngee]

Originally Posted by delta

What happend to that black and white quarterd flag where the leader acted as the safty car.

It was black and yellow quartered!!!!! It was discontinued on the grounds that the UK was the only country to use it and with the increasing number of overseas drivers there were too many drivers who didn't understand it.....not that some of the UK drivers seemed to anyway!
Seriously, just like the safety car, when it worked it was great and, when it didn't it was a shambles!

[delta]

Great Shame

[terence]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Dave exactly the point I was making,... which is why any car infront of the SC is encouraged to get a wiggle on to join the back of the snake hence the original comments about the lead car should lead the snake not be allowed to join the back of it

And very frustrating that situation is for the S/C driver!!.Just such a thing happened at Donington last year,the driver of the last car slowed,quite rightly, but by just a little too much.This cause's the SC to drive very slowly in the hope that tail end charley will take the hint,perhaps even remember what he is supposed to do! That in turn cause's the front running drivers to get a little annoyed by the pace of the SC,that was quite apparent! but it was slightly different once the SC lights went out.