Rules Discussion - is it 4 makes and 3 continents or not?

[touring fan01]

Helgi is correct. Its not works team, its a private effort.

The only reason the WTCC have listed Lada as a 'manufacturer' is because FIA rules say there must be 4 different makes competing for it to be called a 'World Championship'. And with no Honda this year, the WTCC simply listed Lada as a manufacturer to make up the 4.

[touringlegend]

I have noticed the WTCC seem to be quite fond of making private teams 'works'..

[Hazard]

N-Tech wasn't a works Alfa or Honda effort in the last days indeed.

I don't think we're insulting the runners of the car, we're just having a bash at the Priory or whatever it is again. Skoda's saved itself thanks to VW help - but Lada's still fair game

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Hazard

N-Tech wasn't a works Alfa or Honda effort in the last days indeed.

Correct. No they weren't. But the WTCC listed them as manufacturer entries anyway, even though they were not, to comply with the FIA's '4 or more makes' rule (and probably to also make the manufacturer involvement look more substantial).

Its a bit naughty of them really, but I understand why they do it.

[Gil Abobeleira]

Since when was there a rule of "4 makes = WC" (WRC anyone?! )

The rule for the championship is that it must visit, at least, 3 continents, to be granted a world championship status.

[duke_toaster]

I believe Gil's right that there is the three continents rule (with Morocco they can now afford to jettison either the flyaways to South America or the ones to Asia), the WRC has only two manufacturers (cheekily split up in to their senior and junior teams), as well as a privateer in an older Subaru.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Gil Abobeleira

Since when was there a rule of "4 makes = WC" (WRC anyone?! )

The rule for the championship is that it must visit, at least, 3 continents, to be granted a world championship status.

The '4 makes' rule is not new and has been in place for many years.

Read it yourself if you really don't believe me: http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/regul...tingCodeA.aspx

But to save you downloading the PDF file, the FIA International Sporting Code Regulation 24(c) states;

"Championships, Cups, Trophies, Challenges or Series which
bear the FIA name may only be organised by the FIA or by
another body with written consent of the FIA and may only bear a
title that includes the word “World” (or any word with a similar
meaning to or derived from “World” in any language) if their
supplementary regulations comply at least with the requirements
of d) below and with the additional requirement that they involve
the participation, on average over the entire season, of a least
four automobile makes".

(The WRC get away with it because they include the manufacturers competing in the WRC Production & Junior championships under the one WRC umbrella.)

[duke_toaster]

That does not mean four factory teams, however. Besides, for political reasons enforcement might not be a good idea.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

That does not mean four factory teams, however. Besides, for political reasons enforcement might not be a good idea.

I didn't say they had to be factory teams. Just that they have to have four different makes competing...hence why they list the Lada, so that they stay on the right side of the regulation.

Like I said earlier, I don't have a real problem with it - just pointing it out, that's all.

Oh and if you read those FIA regulations there is nothing that states a World Championship must visit 3 continents.
The 3 continent rule applies only to "International Cups, Trophy, Challenge or Series" - not World Championships.

[stedevil]

I would assume a world championship by definition has to be international as well.

Otherwise why did ETCC suddenly change name to WTCC once they started visiting more than 2 continents?

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helgi

I don't want to wash dirty lienen in public but financial situation at AutoVAZ is far from good. It's on its last legs. So their thoughts are far from sport.
In fact that team that racing in WTCC is private. There's no works Lada team. Everything is up to Shapovalov,an engineer,and van Lagen, a test pilot. That's all.
And,as you've noticed,the debut has postponed to Portugal race.And they've planned to introduce Priora in Brno,as you remember...
So,from the realistic point of view,there'll be no new Lada. And, of course, it's not a works team at all!

Is this a recent turn of events? Just a few months back it looked a lot more positive with 2.5M € coming from AutoVAZ.
http://www.zr.ru/news/162507

BTW Brno never made sense to me in the first place. You are supposed to race 3 weekends with the same engine no? So switching model after 6 complete weekends makes a lot more sense then after 5. ANd the time difference is only 2 weeks.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by stedevil

I would assume a world championship by definition has to be international as well. Otherwise why did ETCC suddenly change name to WTCC once they started visiting more than 2 continents?

Your assumption is wrong. If you read them you will find that there is nothing in the FIA regulations that say a World Championship has to visit 3 continents. Only those that call themselves an International Cup, Trophy, Series or Challenge have to. What about the 'World Series by Renault'? That doesn't go to three continents or even two...in fact it only races in one; Europe.

Quite obviously the ETCC became the WTCC because it would be completely nonsensical and lack prestige to be called just the European Touring Car Championship when it travels around the globe!

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

Your assumption is wrong. If you read them you will find that there is nothing in the FIA regulations that say a World Championship has to visit 3 continents. Only those that call themselves an International Cup, Trophy, Series or Challenge have to. What about the 'World Series by Renault'? That doesn't go to three continents or even two...in fact it only races in one; Europe.

Ehh... "...by Renault", that is NOT a FIA World series. In fact you yourself quoted the regulations "with the additional requirement that they involve the participation, on average over the entire season, of a least four automobile makes"

Meanwhile, I need to correct myself, a WTCC engine only needs to last 2 weekends, not 3. But the "switch after 6 not 5" reasoning still applies.

[helterskelter]

I believe Lada are providing some money, though not as much as the other manufacturers. The involvement of Lada is confirmed by the presence of Ladygin, who is a Lada driver. Of course it's about Shapovalov and van Lagen, but you can't say it's a totally private team, IMO.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Ehh... "...by Renault", that is NOT a FIA World series.

I know that. I was merely pointing out that not all "World" titles or series necessarily travel the globe.

Besides I don't know why you want to turn this into some sort of argument. All I'm doing is pointing out the FIA regulations about World Championships, which says nothing about 3 continents but that it has to have 4 makes of car. Its not me making it up. Its just the plain facts which are there for all to read.

[Gil Abobeleira]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

The '4 makes' rule is not new and has been in place for many years.

Read it yourself if you really don't believe me: http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/regul...tingCodeA.aspx

But to save you downloading the PDF file, the FIA International Sporting Code Regulation 24(c) states;

"Championships, Cups, Trophies, Challenges or Series which bear the FIA name may only be organised by the FIA or by another body with written consent of the FIA and may only bear a title that includes the word “World” (or any word with a similar meaning to or derived from “World” in any language) if their supplementary regulations comply at least with the requirements of d) below and with the additional requirement that they involve the participation, on average over the entire season, of a least four automobile makes".

Does it state that the makes have to be official teams? I guess the ambiguous wording is not in any way innocent.

And BTW, the wording of the rule state that the championship must comply with paragraph d) :

d) Other Cups, Trophies, Challenges or Series may not include in their title the word “World” (which, in this section should be read to include any word with a similar meaning to or derived from“World” in any language) without the authorisation of the FIA. As a general rule, the FIA shall grant this authorisation provided that the following requirements are met and that the FIA believes that it is in the interests of the sport to do so. The FIA may withdraw its authorisation in the event of failure to comply with these requirements.
i) The Cup, Trophy, Challenge or Series calendar must include events taking place on at least three continents during the same season.

[redshoes]

Agreed Gil.
My understanding is that the four manufacturers requirement is in addition to the other requirements for a non-Championship 'World' series, i.e 3 continents AND four manufacturers.

BTW if you continue reading...

The FIA may exceptionally grant a waiver for a series which can show long-established use of the term “World”.

so they already have a 'get out of jail free' card if needed.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Gil Abobeleira

Does it state that the makes have to be official teams? I guess the ambiguous wording is not in any way innocent.

And BTW, the wording of the rule state that the championship must comply with paragraph d) :

As I said before, it does not say they have to be factory teams.

And also as I said before, that 3 continent rule is not for a championship. Its for "Cups, Trophies, Challenges or Series". Not Championships.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Agreed Gil.
My understanding is that the four manufacturers requirement is in addition to the other requirements for a non-Championship 'World' series, i.e 3 continents AND four manufacturers.

I don't know why are still saying its 3 continents and 4 four makes.
Clearly if you read the regulations its not. Its just 4 makes and the regulations specifically excludes any mention of a 'championship' as having to go to 3 continents. Maybe it used to at some time, but obviously not now.

[Gil Abobeleira]

Oh come on touring fan, as I've written before, paragraph c) (which applies to Championships) states that the rules in paragraph d) must be complied (that is, the 3 continents-rule):

c) Championships, Cups, Trophies, Challenges or Series which bear the FIA name may only be organised by the FIA or by another body with written consent of the FIA and may only bear a title that includes the word “World” (or any word with a similar meaning to or derived from “World” in any language) if their supplementary regulations comply at least with the requirements of d) below and with the additional requirement that they involve the participation, on average over the entire season, of a least four automobile makes".

d) Other Cups, Trophies, Challenges or Series may not include in their title the word “World” (which, in this section should be read to include any word with a similar meaning to or derived from“World” in any language) without the authorisation of the FIA. As a general rule, the FIA shall grant this authorisation provided that the following requirements are met and that the FIA believes that it is in the interests of the sport to do so. The FIA may withdraw its authorisation in the event of failure to comply with these requirements.
i) The Cup, Trophy, Challenge or Series calendar must include events taking place on at least three continents during the same season.

d) does not imply c), but c) must comply with d) (I know, I'm a poor sod that works with tax law, which is the same bs to understand!)

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Gil Abobeleira

Oh come on touring fan, as I've written before, paragraph c) (which applies to Championships) states that the rules in paragraph d) must be complied (that is, the 3 continents-rule):



d) does not imply c), but c) must comply with d) (I know, I'm a poor sod that works with tax law, which is the same bs to understand!)

Fine, then I will bow to your superior legal knowledge ;-)

(Although we seem to have been sidetracked, as my original post purely pointed out the '4 makes' rule....which gets back to why the Lada entry has been positioned as a 'manufacturer' when in fact they are a privateer effort.)

Oh I have just seen the image above. Gawd that car looks so '80's - it looks old before it has even been released!

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

What about the 'World Series by Renault'? That doesn't go to three continents or even two...in fact it only races in one; Europe.

Despite the fact that by far the largest series on the package is referred to as World Series By Renault, the package itself is called the World Series. However, the terms WSR and Formula Renault 3.5 are used somewhat interchangebly.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Gil Abobeleira

Oh come on touring fan, as I've written before, paragraph c) (which applies to Championships) states that the rules in paragraph d) must be complied (that is, the 3 continents-rule):



d) does not imply c), but c) must comply with d) (I know, I'm a poor sod that works with tax law, which is the same bs to understand!)

Obviously the Wtcc has to comply with d), as it is a series authorized by FIA but organized by KSO.
i) clearly states that Wtcc has to visit 3 continents, which they've actually been doing ever since it existed (South America and Macau). So what's the problem?
Would you please explain to me the difference between Series and Championship?

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Would you please explain to me the difference between Series and Championship?

A Championship is a series of races that accumulate points to decide the Champion.

A Series is just a series of races that doesn't have an overall champion.

[helgi]

'Series' is only a fancy sign. Usually series is a closed championship with its own regulations. You can not enter one event of GP series - you must guarantee the whole season entrance. And the cars are unique. There's no other championship using these cars.
Championship is an open set of races - you can enter any event you like. And it always uses regulations similar to other championships - you can enter different TCCs or GT3 champs as they have similar technical regulations. Championships are usually make an hierarchy pyramid. 'Series' are usually too unique to make even a chain.
Of course, it's my opinion. Series stands for show. Championship - for sport.