Rules Discussion - is it 4 makes and 3 continents or not?

[touringlegend]

[Mod Hat On] Split from the Lada picture thread.[Mod Hat Off]

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Is this a recent turn of events? Just a few months back it looked a lot more positive with 2.5M € coming from AutoVAZ.
http://www.zr.ru/news/162507

BTW Brno never made sense to me in the first place. You are supposed to race 3 weekends with the same engine no? So switching model after 6 complete weekends makes a lot more sense then after 5. ANd the time difference is only 2 weeks.

Is it the same engine in both cars though? If it is could they take the engines out the 110s and put them in the Prioras?

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

explain to me the difference between Series and Championship?

What would be interesting to know is where and how FIA defines the difference. As I already stated, I firmly believe they consider a world championship to at least equal the requirements as for an international series.

Anybody disagreeing, please provide at least 1 single example of a FIA world championship that does NOT visit at least 3 continents.

And ETCC is the perfect counter example. While it was "only" visiting 2 continents it was called ETCC. The very moment it started to visit 3 continents the name was bumped to WTCC, even if all but 2 weekends where still in Europe.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Is it the same engine in both cars though? If it is could they take the engines out the 110s and put them in the Prioras?

I think that might be the case. At least as i understood it, the new engine should already be fitted to the 110s for weekend 5 & 6, ie before the new model even gets to the championship. But how the stewards considers introducing a new model (resetting balast weigths etc) with moving an engine from 1 chassis to another at the same time... might be confusing

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by stedevil

What would be interesting to know is where and how FIA defines the difference. As I already stated, I firmly believe they consider a world championship to at least equal the requirements as for an international series.

Anybody disagreeing, please provide at least 1 single example of a FIA world championship that does NOT visit at least 3 continents.

And ETCC is the perfect counter example. While it was "only" visiting 2 continents it was called ETCC. The very moment it started to visit 3 continents the name was bumped to WTCC, even if all but 2 weekends where still in Europe.

You are right. Short history of the Wtcc.
When the Italian Super Touring Car Championship died there were 3 manufacturers involved: Alfa Romeo, Audi and BMW. In order to save the ST cars, and therefore their huge investments in developing the cars, they decided to create a new championship, based mainly in Italy, called Euro Stc. KSO organized the championship, though I don't know if it was named differently at that time, but anyway those 3 manufacturers created the championship.
After a while the championship got an FIA title and became Etcc. What happened then was that it looked as pure nonsense to spend a huge amount of money travelling around Europe (Even to Dubai) and have a European titulation, just to save the money it took for 2 trips (1 to South America, 1 to Macau). World Touring Car Champion sounded more appealing.
All of this to say that THE MANUFACTURERS pushed for the Etcc to become a World Championsip and, to do so, they had a race in South America and a race in Asia. Like that, the championship complied to the standards required for a World Championship.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by helgi

'Series' is only a fancy sign. Usually series is a closed championship with its own regulations. You can not enter one event of GP series - you must guarantee the whole season entrance. And the cars are unique. There's no other championship using these cars.
Championship is an open set of races - you can enter any event you like. And it always uses regulations similar to other championships - you can enter different TCCs or GT3 champs as they have similar technical regulations. Championships are usually make an hierarchy pyramid. 'Series' are usually too unique to make even a chain.
Of course, it's my opinion. Series stands for show. Championship - for sport.

So, if I understand correctly, Formula One is a series, since you don't have the chance to be a 'wild card', and it has its own regulations?
In Italy we have a series (which is FIA authorized), and it's called Endurance Touring Car Series, but it does not respond to helgi's definition, nor to touring fan01's. So, who is right and who is wrong?

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

So, if I understand correctly, Formula One is a series, since you don't have the chance to be a 'wild card', and it has its own regulations?

No. Formula One is a Championship. Like I said before, a championship is a series of races (each race which awards points) and they add up to determine the champion.

[helgi]

Try to enter a team for Italian GP then. I'm sure (if you had enough money) it's more and more easily to enter a single WTCC event,as every real 'series' (GP,GP2,WSR...) is a closed championship.(Even in 'Autosport' in early 80s they wrote 'GP series',since 1981)

But there's LMS,where you can enter any event you like, so =>

=> There's abracadabra with different sings because nobody put a real meaning in the titles of 'series' and 'championship'. These are only fancy sings now. Want to be Conservative then call your races 'champ'. Want to be cool - then 'series' is your choice. And FIA is deciding whether your races are suitable for 'champ' rank. For example, FIA GT is good enough to be called so, and LMS is not,even if it has similar technical and sporting regulations. If it was under FIA maybe it would be called World Spotscar Championship. But it's ruled by ACO. So,it only a 'series'.

Maybe the main thing is who rules the races. If FIA does, then they are good enough to be called 'champ'.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by helgi

Try to enter a team for Italian GP then. I'm sure (if you had enough money) it's more and more easily to enter a single WTCC event,as every real 'series' (GP,GP2,WSR...) is a closed championship.(Even in 'Autosport' in early 80s they wrote 'GP series',since 1981)

But there's LMS,where you can enter any event you like, so =>

=> There's abracadabra with different sings because nobody put a real meaning in the titles of 'series' and 'championship'. These are only fancy sings now. Want to be Conservative then call your races 'champ'. Want to be cool - then 'series' is your choice. And FIA is deciding whether your races are suitable for 'champ' rank. For example, FIA GT is good enough to be called so, and LMS is not,even if it has similar technical and sporting regulations. If it was under FIA maybe it would be called World Spotscar Championship. But it's ruled by ACO. So,it only a 'series'.

Maybe the main thing is who rules the races. If FIA does, then they are good enough to be called 'champ'.

Ok, I understand it better now. Looks to me like 'championship' is just a more prestigeous FIA title which indicates the 'ranking' of a championship. Thanks Helgi.

Originally Posted by touring fan01

No. Formula One is a Championship. Like I said before, a championship is a series of races (each race which awards points) and they add up to determine the champion.

I think this is not correct, since, for instance, World SERIES by Renault does determine its champions. So this definition sounds weird to me. As far as I know every series of at least 2 races has a champion, even the worst club race on Earth.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Ok, I understand it better now. Looks to me like 'championship' is just a more prestigeous FIA title which indicates the 'ranking' of a championship. Thanks Helgi.


I think this is not correct, since, for instance, World SERIES by Renault does determine its champions. So this definition sounds weird to me. As far as I know every series of at least 2 races has a champion, even the worst club race on Earth.

I think you are getting yourself confused. My definition of a 'Championship' is absolutely correct. Just because some series also call their winner a 'champion' does not mean that a 'Championship' is not as I stated!

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

I think you are getting yourself confused. My definition of a 'Championship' is absolutely correct. Just because some series also call their winner a 'champion' does not mean that a 'Championship' is not as I stated!

No, I'm not questioning your definition of championship, I'm questioning your definition of series as a number of races who does not determine a Champion. It doesn't look like so...

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

No, I'm not questioning your definition of championship, I'm questioning your definition of series as a number of races who does not determine a Champion. It doesn't look like so...

I give up...we are going around in circles.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I'm questioning your definition of series as a number of races who does not determine a Champion. It doesn't look like so...

The MSA uses the following definition:

The MSA defines a Championship as “an event, or series of events, organised for the purpose of establishing the right to an individual for collective title. Such a competition may also be referred to by other titles, e.g. Challenge, Trophy or Series”.

In this instance the terms 'Championship' and 'Series' are largely interchangeable.

What touring fan was describing is what I would consider a 'non-championship series', i.e. a collection of races where no points are awarded and there is no end-of-season winner. As far as I'm aware there is no official term for this.

I think we've stumbled on one of the joys of the English language. It comes down to the difference between 'series' (lowercase 's') as meaning a group of, and 'Series' (uppercase 'S') as an official title.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by redshoes

The MSA uses the following definition:

In this instance the terms 'Championship' and 'Series' are largely interchangeable.

What touring fan was describing is what I would consider a 'non-championship series', i.e. a collection of races where no points are awarded and there is no end-of-season winner. As far as I'm aware there is no official term for this.

I think we've stumbled on one of the joys of the English language. It comes down to the difference between 'series' (lowercase 's') as meaning a group of, and 'Series' (uppercase 'S') as an official title.

Absolutely correct.
Thank you Redshoes.