Is it time for Seth to give away the driving?

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by TWK

He owns it. He's going to drive it, and to hell with the rest. As long as Seth Neiman drives there is no chance, nada, none.

This is a perennial argument with Seth Neiman, which begs the question, at 56, when's he going to give it away? I know, that as the man who finances Flying Lizards, it's his call to make. However, if he does give up the driving, do the Lizards keep going? Without preempting things, it will be a hell of a loss, if he takes his bat and ball, and goes home, when his driving days are over. Just a gut feeling, but I think he has unfinished business at LM24 to complete, that can only possibly happen if he gets out of the driving seat, and gives the team a genuine shot at the win. BTW, I have tremendous respect for the guy and hope that he hangs around for a while, but maybe justs slides out of the driving side of things gracefully (and I've got a load of Lizards t shirts, that I don't want to see obsolete)

[NightStalk3r]

I don't know why this discusion keeps coming up, its none of our buisness its his team, he pays the bills, he can do what the hell he likes, we may not like it that his pace looses the team races but that's the way it is.

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

I don't know why this discusion keeps coming up, its none of our buisness its his team, he pays the bills, he can do what the hell he likes, we may not like it that his pace looses the team races but that's the way it is.

Hello, this is a discussion forum, and I simply put forward a question. If you don't want to respond without some smart arse reply, then don't.

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

Hello, this is a discussion forum, and I simply put forward a question. If you don't want to respond without some smart arse reply, then don't.

This discussion on owner/drivers and Seth inperticular has been done to death on these forums.

[dj4monie]

The reason why it keeps coming up is because only Sports Car Racing tolerates Pro-Am status and then make excuse about the lack of success, lack of corporate sponsorships, profitable media contracts, volatile car counts, volatile series schedules - Shall I keep going?

The owner of Daily Sportscar would say what you just said Stalker, is that a British thing? NASCAR hasn't been volatile since they first switched from big blocks to small block engines in the mid 1970s. Since then its been on upward trajectory to where it is now.

When Rick Hendrick drove some races in his own cars, he was fairly competitive, even at Riverside. He also did some driving for the movie Days Of Thunder because the producers asked him and the story is pretty much about him.

He is the most successful car owner in NASCAR's modern era yet, he has no visions of driving his own cars.

Roger Penske gave up a successful driving career to steer his father's company and become a car owner. The rest they say is history.

Everybody knows that a car driven by amateur drivers have no shot at winning a race without extreme circumstances.

A late pit stop for fuel by Lord Drayson's team would have sunk them into the lower half of the Top 10, if it was 2008. But because of the weaken competition, it took a cough by the leading Porsche coming into Canada Corner for them to win what will likely be the ONE and ONLY victory in the ALMS, LMS or anyplace else, as long as the Lord demands that he drives. Makes it hard to get sponsorship as well, sponsors want to be seen running up front, where cameras are focusing.

When are mostly European, even more specifically British Fans and Web Site owners, yes I'm talking about Graham "Cracker" and the the lead Moderator on this site that constantly play apologist for the volatile nature that is Sports Car Racing. They have never ending excuses and its usually a man and his money argument.

Well as fans we vote with our feet and our wallets. We don't exclude the teams that allow their owners, rich business men or actors the chance to run races. You can't drive an F1 car without a Super License, I still say if there's no driver requirement then a min lap time rule should be in effect, even with reduced car counts. Guess what? Even if Seth where to take his toys and go home, another team would step into that vacuum and run Porsche' because Porsche as a manufacturer wants a presence in the series, likely Greg Pickett...

So before you go all wishy washing and protect Rich Men and their overloaded wallets, explain they make racing go round, when that's not the case for any other major International series. It takes corporate cubic dollars to be competitive and then whining happens when factories dominate and Walter Mitty can't even get on the podium.

[NightStalk3r]

I don't remember saying that rich gentlemen make the racing go round.

And your Penske and Hendrick examples are totally different for them there race teams are businesses, designed to attract sponsors and make money, Seth on the other hand doesn't rely on sponsor money to pay the bills he pays the bills out of his own pocket so that he can do what he enjoys.

That said, in events where the Lizards only have 1 car i do think Joerg and Pat would be better placed with another team that do stand a chance of being competitive.

As for the super license in F1 if you've got enough money any driver can buy one, its just another way for Bernie to make money from the sport.

[The Badger]

Ok , its his team and if he wants to drive in it , its his choice becasue ..... its his team .

Now , with the new rules , GTE Pro/Am , I would like to see 2 entries , one for the factory lads and one for Nieman and crew . Lots of extra places for GTE at Le Mans this year , cuz we dont have GT1 nomore .

If he wants results , he has to realise that he needs to let the quick boys run their strategy .

But it is his team , and without him there wouldnt even be a team . I dont have anything against him in the car ..... love to see a Pro/Am Lizards entry at Le Mans .

[Audi Racer]

Hiiiiiiii!!!!!

[Audi Racer]

Nothing like shooting your own team in the foot

[Audi Racer]

quite frankly say what you like about the guy but it's his job to put aside whatever ego he thinks he has and step out of the car. I totally understand if you have three non pro drivers in the car but thats just not fair to Jeorg or Pat Long. It's downright Cruel!! Seth has been given two porsche hotshoes. In fact their shoes are on fire!. He keeps dousing those flames. He tends to be a magnet for getting caught up in other peoples accidents at Lemans. Lemans owes the flying lizard team. Seth knows what he has to do their

[Lola T70]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

quite frankly say what you like about the guy but it's his job to put aside whatever ego he thinks he has and step out of the car. I totally understand if you have three non pro drivers in the car but thats just not fair to Jeorg or Pat Long. It's downright Cruel!! Seth has been given two porsche hotshoes. In fact their shoes are on fire!. He keeps dousing those flames. He tends to be a magnet for getting caught up in other peoples accidents at Lemans. Lemans owes the flying lizard team. Seth knows what he has to do their

The drivers have a choice as well, Porsche do not force them, they offer them the opportunity.

[Félix]

Endurance racing attracts these rich guys, those who want to drive. You can't buy a used manufacturer formula car and race it yourself in a non-historic category with a shot at winning. You can in sportscar racing, and because the car is shared you might even win when things go right...

Just think of the field for Le Mans this year. That's where you'll find the highest number of factory entries and pro drivers, but more than half of the field will be there because a gentleman driver is involved. Sometimes they are happy with just paying the bills and sitting it out. Sometimes it's all pro drivers, but some are there because they can somehow pay for the ride. Either way, we'll never see a Le Mans field made up solely of pro drivers chosen for their talent and nothing else. Even F1 can't do that.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

The reason why it keeps coming up is because only Sports Car Racing tolerates Pro-Am status and then make excuse about the lack of success, lack of corporate sponsorships, profitable media contracts, volatile car counts, volatile series schedules - Shall I keep going?

The owner of Daily Sportscar would say what you just said Stalker, is that a British thing? NASCAR hasn't been volatile since they first switched from big blocks to small block engines in the mid 1970s. Since then its been on upward trajectory to where it is now.

When Rick Hendrick drove some races in his own cars, he was fairly competitive, even at Riverside. He also did some driving for the movie Days Of Thunder because the producers asked him and the story is pretty much about him.

He is the most successful car owner in NASCAR's modern era yet, he has no visions of driving his own cars.

Roger Penske gave up a successful driving career to steer his father's company and become a car owner. The rest they say is history.

Everybody knows that a car driven by amateur drivers have no shot at winning a race without extreme circumstances.

A late pit stop for fuel by Lord Drayson's team would have sunk them into the lower half of the Top 10, if it was 2008. But because of the weaken competition, it took a cough by the leading Porsche coming into Canada Corner for them to win what will likely be the ONE and ONLY victory in the ALMS, LMS or anyplace else, as long as the Lord demands that he drives. Makes it hard to get sponsorship as well, sponsors want to be seen running up front, where cameras are focusing.

When are mostly European, even more specifically British Fans and Web Site owners, yes I'm talking about Graham "Cracker" and the the lead Moderator on this site that constantly play apologist for the volatile nature that is Sports Car Racing. They have never ending excuses and its usually a man and his money argument.

Well as fans we vote with our feet and our wallets. We don't exclude the teams that allow their owners, rich business men or actors the chance to run races. You can't drive an F1 car without a Super License, I still say if there's no driver requirement then a min lap time rule should be in effect, even with reduced car counts. Guess what? Even if Seth where to take his toys and go home, another team would step into that vacuum and run Porsche' because Porsche as a manufacturer wants a presence in the series, likely Greg Pickett...

So before you go all wishy washing and protect Rich Men and their overloaded wallets, explain they make racing go round, when that's not the case for any other major International series. It takes corporate cubic dollars to be competitive and then whining happens when factories dominate and Walter Mitty can't even get on the podium.

If Porsche wanted to win at all costs they'd fund FLM or another team 100%, they don't because FLM are a customer.

Privateers and amateur drivers will always be integral to sportscar racing and looking how the ILMC is shaping up with factories, privateers and amateurs it seems to be the way to go over here and stateside.

[Joe Taylor]

I was trying to work out the other day how many current ALMS teams would be around if teams who either employ gentlemen drivers or were set up by a rich guy who wanted to go racing were excluded. I got:
- Risi
- Rahal-Letterman
- Corvette Racing
- Team Falken Tire
- West Racing

I suppose you could argue that Greg Pickett and Paul Gentilozzi are professional drivers, so you could add Cytosport and RSR, but given that they are also the money behind the team, I'm not including them.

[WMUCarGuy]

I think it really comes down to ego. Sure Seth could probably drive circles around any of us, but with him in a Flying Lizard race car, his team stands almost no chance of success in an enduro. He needs to put his ego aside, assume a team manager role and put ALL pros in his cars for the enduros because the other 3 drivers in that car this weekend are bonafide winners and could have taken the car the distance.

[Dani Filth]

he probably doesn't like the "team manager role" .. he could always take his money to be a sailor with a Flying Lizards America's Cup Yacht ..

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by WMUCarGuy

Sure Seth could probably drive circles around any of us, but with him in a Flying Lizard race car, his team stands almost no chance of success in an enduro

Rockenfeller-Lieb-Hindrey , BAM Motorsport won their class at Le Mans , Hindrey did just 2 stints , first and last ..... you can win that way , its been proven .

[Adam43]

I presume he is enjoying himself.

[dxk1]

Seth should do whatever the hell he wants!

DK

[TWK]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

I don't know why this discusion keeps coming up, its none of our buisness its his team, he pays the bills, he can do what the hell he likes, we may not like it that his pace looses the team races but that's the way it is.

Maybe because we buy the flippin' tickets? What part of sports is NOT a fan's "business."

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Joe Taylor

I was trying to work out the other day how many current ALMS teams would be around if teams who either employ gentlemen drivers or were set up by a rich guy who wanted to go racing were excluded. I got:
- Risi
- Rahal-Letterman
- Corvette Racing
- Team Falken Tire
- West Racing

I suppose you could argue that Greg Pickett and Paul Gentilozzi are professional drivers, so you could add Cytosport and RSR, but given that they are also the money behind the team, I'm not including them.

So, you don't thing Guiseppi Risi is a "rich guy?" or David Letterman?

The point isn't whether a "rich guy" "sets up" a team, it's ONLY whether he then drives. Enzo Ferrari didn't need to drive, and after a time, neither has Roger Penske or Bobby Rahal.

Seth Neiman was NEVER competitive, and according to a team source has "regressed," meaning he no longer takes coaching well. His ego won't let him either step out of the cockpit OR take advice.

Unfortunately, I have personal knowledge of that "ego," (the better word is arrogance).

[arakis]

Originally Posted by TWK

Maybe because we buy the flippin' tickets? What part of sports is NOT a fan's "business."

the part that brings cars to races, I find it very stupid that people keep bashing seth! this is the guy that brougth flying lizards to ya all, and many race wins and titles, while he likes to drive the big ones himself 24 Daytona, le mans. he lets the pros do championship races and in the end. even if the lizards lose both daytona and Le mans, they still get a pro chance at ALMS! in my book thats an ok trade.

if the choise is not watching the lizards at all, or just watching them at ALMS, I would be preaty happy with that!

yea it would be nice if he only did the menagerial stuff, but has anyone stoped to think, that he does all this because HE wants to race, and he wants to Win, he might be delusunal but it is his money, and that cash gave us lots and lots of hot races

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by TWK

Unfortunately, I have personal knowledge of that "ego," (the better word is arrogance).

When you say you have personal knowledge, is that from Seth or someone like him?

[arakis]

insted of bashing any gentelman drive, acept the fact that no mater how fast the car is in the hands of the pros, that car will never be in it for a win, and simply erase it form your mental entry list, in other words don't get your hopes up when Berg posts best laps, and pole positions, just forget about that car

[dj4monie]

All I am saying is this -

Pro Am driver line ups have a direct effect on professionalism.

Giving up 3-4 seconds a lap is asking too much for professional drivers to make up and still achieve victory on a regular basis.

We should also be honest that if given a choice every driver in the paddock that makes a living at this would opt for a fully supported factory effort or a what European's call Semi-Works where the owner provides the dollars via sponsorships and the factory provides drivers and technical support.

Saying that they make it go round, is an excuse to the question of why doesn't this type of racing appeal to a wider audience, including corporate sponsorship.

Obviously Ed Brown likes it enough to invest into the series itself (to what degree we don't know), support a class and has his own team.

Seth dodges much of the criticism because he has a two car team. It should be also understood that if they were battling for the lead it doesn't matter if its Daytona or Le Mans, he would never see the car again unless they were up by 2-3 laps before the last stop to put him into the car to take it to the flag (Leo Hindery's Le Mans class victory).