Group B MG Metro 6R4 History

[RGM]

Who hasn't done that? :-)

Not many of the cars had the little pictogram on the gear stick indicating where the often elusive reverse gear was hiding! I think that when you screwed the gear nob on tightly, the threads popped through the gear nob and popped the pictogram off, deforming the plastic gear nob so any attempt at replacing the now dimpled pictogram was hopeless!
We made a new gearnob for Sam Nelsons car for the Donnington superchallenge race that "claimed" to have 6 gears..... that freaked everyone out for a while! He he.....

[caprisport]

Hi.
I am represent the new owner of the genuine C84RBD.
Is it possible for us to claim the reg number for the car.
It is chassi 007 and yes it has a dra vin.
We dont boder to restore the car if there is no tite to it.
And just race it and have fun..
what is DRA anyway?
Vidar.
norway

[MG Rover Sport]

Good evening Vidar, and welcome to Ten Tenths!

Thank you for taking the time to post details of the car here, and if you leave it with me for a few days, I will see what I can find out about the Reg No C84 RBD and maybe who actually owns it. I cannot promise anything, but I will try.

The comment about your car being chassis number 007 is slightly confusing. Are you referring to the number on the back of the chassis leg? I think Mike posted a photo of it earlier in this thread.

DRA stands for David Richards Autosport, which is basically what Prodrive used to be called. DRAprepared and ran the Rothmans sponsored 6R4s for Jimmy McRae, Billy Coleman and Turk Ali Karacan in 1986, as well as preparing the privateer cars of Jean Luc Thevenod and Mika Arpianen.

[caprisport]

Yes i The number on the front chassi is 007 and i trough that was the built number like 007 of 200..
I am new to 6r4s so this i dount know.
With the works Rs200 we just restored I think it is a bit easyer to identyfy.

[RGM]

Hi Vidar,

The 007 chassis plate is on the rear chassis rail, beneath the rear anti roll bar mount, that is the one in the picture earlier in the thread.
There might also be a 007 chassis number at the front of the car, but it is not the 6R4 "body build number" that austin rover fitted to the cars, see picture of the "yellow" A20ROV body build number plate, actually the rear of the stamped plate has the number in reverse, as the front was ground off, due to the DVLA not accepting that the car had 2 plates with numbers on them.

The original chassis plates for all the metros ended up in a storage bin at austin rovers motorsport warehouse, which an unwitting Sam Nelson bought during the auction when the motorsport department was shut down, they were at Nelson Engines for a long time. I remember finding them in a box of parts and thought... hey what are these....! I threw them back in the box and never thought about it again.....
Imagine what those would be worth now.... if anyone knew where they were!
None of the cars, or very few of them (to my knowledge) ever had the "proper" chassis plates fitted.

The number sequence started with 570 (for all 6R4's) and then 001-206 to identify the 206(?) cars built. So 570001 to 570206. I assume that the intention was for the body build plates were to correspond with the chassis numbers!

Whether you can get the original papers for C84RBD or not, it IS the real C84RBD, so should really be restored at some time in the future... but why not have some fun with it first!


First picture is of both "chassis plates" the one with yellow paint and no visible number is the "body build number" fitted to all the 6R4's I ever collected at the factory or worked on, with the exception of the works cars and rothmans cars.
I carefully ground off the yellow paint to see what number it was, but there was no number, for reasons I explained previously. (In the next picture you can see why I drilled out the rivets to inspect the rear of the stamped body build plate, where the number is visible in reverse.

The larger plate below the (yellow) one is the chassis number, and on this car was originally off a MG Metro 1300cc... but is now registered as a 3.0 litre. You can see the last 6 digits of the chassis number 890627.
The proper 6R4 chassis plates had the number sequence 570001-570206.



Here is the reverse side of the body build plate. 6R4 176. So A20ROV is body number (or 6R4 number) 176.


Niether of these two types of chassis plates were fitted to C84RBD when I first saw it at Glomma Papp, only the plate with "007" on it.
It is exactly the same type of plate that was fitted to the other Rothmans car I worked on C727DYL, which I do not remember the number of, and even Sam Nelsons ex-temperature developement "works" shell has this type of chassis number plate, his was 004.
So I don't think this type of chassis number was exclusive to David Richards Autosport, unless of course DRA also prepped the "works" shell that Sam Nelson had. (or perhaps DRA bought shells from the same supplier as Auston Rover?)


Final picture, the location of the body build plates originally, on A20ROV there was a kill switch mounted over it....
It is directly behind the right hand front suspension turret.
On many of the early cars, this area was cut out to fit a power steering fluid tank, when the cars had front diff (propshaft) driven power steering pumps.


Mike

[MG Rover Sport]

Originally Posted by RGM

if the ebay auction goes our way A20ROV will be getting a rover V8 with the pukka sump that does not require modifying the rear chassis rail....

Any news on this Mike?

[MG Rover Sport]

I have also heard similar stories of 'loose' VIN Nos, although I also gather that there were indeed a series of duplicate VIN Nos produced by Austin Rover - for what reason though I don't know? I also gather that there were 3 or 4 For Sale on ebay recently, and I think I recall some of them were even marked 'duplicate' on the reverse!

There are usually at least two numbers on any 6R4, the Austin Rover Group black & silver VIN (or Chassis) No and the white 6R4 (or Body) No. Both are usually pop rivetted onto the front offside suspension turret - or 'passenger side' on a left hand drive car - exactly as per Mike's photos.

The No 007 that Vidar mentions re C84 RBD is not 007 of the 200 Clubman cars built for homologation, as you rightly said Mike. To support this debate, here is your photo of it fitted to the BACK of the car, on the end of the 'passenger side' chassis leg...




I have seen the same number 007 (and sometimes 004?) on some of the Austin Rover Motorsport prepared Computervision rally cars of Tony Pond / Malcolm Wilson, and on some of their recce / practice cars. All I can think of is that it was a quick way to identify what specification bodyshell each car was built on?

That is what I cannot understand, why a DRA car would have the same numbering style as a car built at Cowley by Austin Rover Motorsport? Unless the bodyshells came from the same source that is?

[MG Rover Sport]

Originally Posted by RGM

Here is the reverse side of the body build plate. 6R4 176. So A20ROV is body number (or 6R4 number) 176.

So are you fully aware of the previous history of 6R4 No 176 then Mike?

[RGM]

Hi David,

Very interesting that several cars have had body "type" numbers 004 and 007. As you say, obviously a specification of the body shell type, rather than an identification plate.

The rover v8 is now earmarked for us. The auction did not allow overseas bids, so we let it run its course (no bids) and then contacted the seller. Deal is done and we should be heading over to the uk to collect it very soon. So yes, A20ROV will be getting a v8.

History of nr.176. Max Wakefield did tell us the loose history of the car when we bought it off him, but I don't really remember. I think Carl broad had it before Max, and it was with David Appleby for a while also I think....
So if you know anything about 6R4 176 then please share.

Mike

[RGM]

Number 176... wouldn't it be spooky if it were Capdevila, Nelson or Iversens old car!! Or one that I have previously worked on....?

He he he....

Mike.

[MG Rover Sport]

Hi Mike,

I agree about the 004 and 007 numbers being possibly a bodyshell specification system, and I seem to recall I have seen recce cars numbered 004 and rally cars numbered 007. I'll try and dig out some photos over the next day or so and get back to you with some further incidents of them both.

Interesting about the Rover V8. I know the engine in question and the car that it was originally fitted to. Glad you've managed to do the deal.

Re 6R4 No 176. I am happy to let you know what I do, but are you happy for me to post it here or send it to you via PM or email? I am sorry to say that it has no Capdevila, Nelson or Iversen as far as I am aware - but I am sure you will know the car...

[RGM]

By all means post the history here, I am a firm believer in the freedom of information for all.

So unless it was the one car that got stolen and never reappeared... then feel free to post it here.. ;-)

Mike.

[RGM]

Originally Posted by MG Rover Sport

- but I am sure you will know the car...

I can harldy wait to be enlightened, as from the time I saw the number I had a strange feeling that I "knew" the number from previous... but then I did work on a lot of them...

Mike

[MG Rover Sport]

You'll have to bare with me I'm afraid Mike - I've got a 1 day, 17 hour and approx 35 minute old grandson that's waiting to see me in hospital mate...

...just occasionally there are more important things in life than 6R4s!

[RGM]

Congratulations..... Will his name be Austin Rover? ;-)

[SAMD]

BMC? British Leyland? BLMC? ARG? There must be shed loads of options. Morris Garages?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by SAMD

BMC? British Leyland? BLMC? ARG? There must be shed loads of options. Morris Garages?

Er, i've heard of people called Austin, and perhaps Morris but never actually heard of anyone called British.....

[SAMD]

You've obviously never lived in Ireland

[MG Rover Sport]

Many thanks for the kind words of sentiment chaps, and the suggestions for some suitable names. Unfortunately Grandad doesn't have any clout when it comes to choosing his name I'm afraid, so all of your suggestions are falling on deaf ears on this occasion, so...

...Leo David it is then! His first name after his Great Grandad, and his middle name after yours truly!

Back to the topic of this thread, and the important history of 6R4 No 176's background. Thanks to a good mate of mine, this is it in it's former glory on the 1996 Woodpecker Stages - hence the yellow paint you found under the 6R4 No plate...



6R4 No 176 was sold by Austin Rover to Russel Hale in January 1987 as a bare bodyshell, and un-used for four years. It was then built up into Russel Hale's second rallycar in late 1991 with the mechanics, VIN No XXX and Reg No D111 BEG from his first rallycar as that was getting a bit tired!

The work was carried out by TRX Motorsport in late 1991, and the new car debuted on the 1992 Natwest Midwinter Stages Rally at Snetterton on 26 January. I do not have any reference to hand at the moment regarding how long the Hales continued to use it competitively, but I can find out if it is of interest?

D111 BEG was then sold to Steve Fleck in November 1995 and rallied by him on the 1995 Peter Lloyd Rallying Stages and 1995 Cadwell Park Stages - possibly others too, which I can dig into if of interest? Steve Winter was next to acquire it in March 1996 and he rallied it for the year. Steve debuted it on the 1996 Porlock Hillclimb on 30 June – emerging with fastest time of the day (FTD)! Steve then contested the 1996 Quinton Stages, Tempest Stages, Woodpecker Stages and Cambrian Rally - ditto comment re events contested.

Carl Broad bought it in January 1997 - likewise. Which then brings it pretty much up to date with the next owner being Max Wakefield (as you stated) and then yourself Mike. Any more recent history, with either Max or yourself would be very much appreciated, as I seem to have a lack of information from that period.

The car changed Reg No to A20 ROV when either Carl or Max had it, and the original Reg No D111 BEG is now on Roger Binyon's blue DAM 4100 long wheelbase spaceframe rally car - although I am not sure if the original VIN No is on that car as well?

NOTE! : The following photo which shows the area directly behind the right hand front suspension turret, including the kill switch mounted on a bracket over the 6R4 No plate, and the detail matches the photo of the same area on A20 ROV posted on the previous page (bottom photo)...

D111 BEG as seen on 1996 Woodpecker Stages...


A20 ROV as seen now in March 2010...

[andy97]

Originally Posted by MG Rover Sport

You'll have to bare with me I'm afraid Mike - I've got a 1 day, 17 hour and approx 35 minute old grandson that's waiting to see me in hospital mate...

...just occasionally there are more important things in life than 6R4s!

No, can't see it myself.

[RGM]

Originally Posted by MG Rover Sport

Which then brings it pretty much up to date with the next owner being Max Wakefield (as you stated) and then yourself Mike.

I found the car for sale, convinced my business partner to buy it, funded the inspection and collection of the car, but it is not mine. Craig Johnson (childhood friend and long term business partner) is the current owner of A20ROV.

I think I have seen A20ROV on Rovers that David Appleby rallied on occasions... but I could be wrong. I also remember seeing it with a "modified -A-" so that the plate read 420ROV (420 bhp Rover).

[MG Rover Sport]

So what are your (and Craig's) thoughts about the car's past that I mentioned Mike? I also have a handful of other questions about it if that's OK?...

i) Did Craig buy it from Max Wakefield?
ii) Do you know roughly when this was, ie a month / year for my files?
iii) Do you know what Max did with the car during the time he owned it?
iv) Was it complete or a rolling shell when Craig bought it?
v) Is Craig based in Sweden too?
vi) Do you have any photos of A20 ROV - either when Craig acquired it or even now if there is any change?

[MG Rover Sport]

Three 6R4s seen at the 2010 Race Retro at Stonleigh over the weekend...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/michael...os/4435293734/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/michael...os/4435280572/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/michael...os/4434471593/

[KA]

Some more 6R4 pics- been looking for original late 80's/early 90's rallycross shots, and trying to work out how many UK and Irish drivers ran 6R4s over the years

Will Gollop- originally ran the car in a red/blue Mobil-sponsored livery, before a change of sponsor to Silkolene brought the iconic black/red/gold colourscheme

Mobil
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wembley...7604092404722/

Silkolene:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wembley...7604092404722/

Steve Palmer- blue & white car with backing from Practica computers. There was a later and much more elaborate Practica livey- After the end of the Practica deal, IIRC he ran largely unsponsored for a while- I think there was also a yellow/black (Panasonic?) paintscheme. I've got shots of some of these and will post them as soon as I get a chance to scan them
Original Practica livery
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wembley...7604092404722/

Michael Shield- red car with Agip & Croft Rallycross sponsorship
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wembley...7604092404722/

Vic Moyce- car was always white with a red stripe IIRC?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wembley...7604092404722/

Rob Gibson- yellow and black car- usually seemed to have some bodywork damage- Rob's driving style being fairly uncompromising....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wembley...7604092404722/

[KA]

A few more...

John Moloney from Ireland- went through quite a few changes of colour, including red and a fairly eye-watering lime green. I don't recall ever seeing his car(s) in black though...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wembley...7604092404722/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oop/27614375/

one of the less-often seen UK 6R4s, John Fernandes. Based in Jersey, and I think more frequently seen on the French championship? From memory he did occasional British events, and usually turned up for the Rallycross GP at Brands. Car was always red & yellow as I remember
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimag...%20Trappes.jpg

One of the few 6R4 drivers still seen in rallycross- Lawrence Gibson.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cmwatson/3431613338/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/endahealy/2934714575/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/46937819@N06/4304875158/
Think he's had more than one Metro? He's certainly gone through a few different paintjobs- not helped by exploits like this...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brooklands78/227430405/