[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[canaglia]

Montezemolo, former ferrari chairman has always been very involved in f1 program in his old days, he used the same threatening strategy during 2009 le mans week-end.
To me is a quite pathetic move.... step back from f1 to wec (if ever will still exist in 2020) means to lose about 90% of earnings that f1 ensures to RB just to fill 2 cars in grid...

As far I've read some time ago, RB f1 budget for 2018 season was about 350mln €. Maybe RB isn't competitive enough to win titles but is the third most important team in grid, so at the end of the season, among sponsorships, TV rights, f1 rewards etc... should at least have earned about 400mln.
Wec money turnover is just peanuts compared to f1.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Montezemolo, former ferrari chairman has always been very involved in f1 program in his old days, he used the same threatening strategy during 2009 le mans week-end.
To me is a quite pathetic move.... step back from f1 to wec (if ever will still exist in 2020) means to lose about 90% of earnings that f1 ensures to RB just to fill 2 cars in grid...

Potentially balanced out by a much smaller budget to be competitive.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Probably, knowing Christian Horner, he’s trying to put pressure on the owners of F1

Helmut Marko is the man behind these remarks, not Horner. I think he has a little bit more say in all of what RB does motorsport-wise than Horner. Horner is team principle of the f1 squad. Marko is RB's motorsports advisor. But it probably is the same pressure to get rules more to their favor.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by canaglia

To me is a quite pathetic move.... step back from f1 to wec (if ever will still exist in 2020) means to lose about 90% of earnings that f1 ensures to RB just to fill 2 cars in grid...

As far I've read some time ago, RB f1 budget for 2018 season was about 350mln €. Maybe RB isn't competitive enough to win titles but is the third most important team in grid, so at the end of the season, among sponsorships, TV rights, f1 rewards etc... should at least have earned about 400mln.
Wec money turnover is just peanuts compared to f1.

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Potentially balanced out by a much smaller budget to be competitive.

No balance that i can see.

WEC is Not cheap. Compared to F1 maybe it is less expensive, but certainly not orders of magnitude cheaper.

Fewer races, less exposure, less sponsor interest, no team or TV money ....

Bascially a Lot of people have heard of Formula One. Not a lot of heard of WEC. Every F1 race is televised just about everywhere ... WEC has crappy streaming and little TV presence.

I see this as a political move, maybe only internal politics. Red Bull ... do they really want to go to WEC and Keep getting beat by Ferrari?

[canaglia]

Surely WEC will get cheaper in next future, but isn't about that;

F1 is a so big moneymaking business for a team like RB, that basically they would never drop off.

Most of revenue from f1 isn't even contemplated in WEC (TV rights share, sponsorships).

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

No balance that i can see.

WEC is Not cheap. Compared to F1 maybe it is less expensive, but certainly not orders of magnitude cheaper.

Audi's LMP1 program was believed to cost them around $200million per year. The frontrunning F1 teams are believed to have budgets pushing double that. I would consider that significant. And let's not get into specifics since we don't know for sure how things will shake out, but when you consider that the new rules are designed to reduce those costs it's not unreasonable to expect a Red Bull program to be able to be run competitively even cheaper than that.

As for lack of exposure, WEC actually has pretty good TV coverage in Europe. They may not be on F1 level, but they get plenty of exposure. Red Bull has always been good at self-promoting regardless, so I doubt they'd find themselves much -if any- worse off than how things are in F1.

[TF110]

You can get by in the new regs with $30 million per season. That's a tenth of what f1 costs for a front running team. Even non-front running teams can spend a lot of money. McLaren is one of them. RB has plenty of cash to play with. They can be a partner with Aston Martin and run a RB livery on the Valkyrie or something and save money. I believe Honda is going to be giving them engines in f1 so they save money there too. An engine deal in f1 per season is probably more than half a team's budget in the wec for a season if not more.

[canaglia]

Difference is that F1 teams spend a lot but by the end of season, recovers costs and earn money. Regardless of results most of time... just watch williams recent seasons; by paying drivers, sponsorships and TV rights share, they can finance awful seasons after seasons.

Has anybody here watched the RB spot with coulthard making donuts on top of dubai skyscraper heliport driving an old RB f1?
During a tv show was revealed that RB spent about 8 mln€ for just that spot...
A WEC hypercar program would be just bread crumbs for RB finances.... but at the end, bread crumbs is all WEC can ensure them

[Aysedasi]

It depends though on how they package and market it. The Red Bull brand is known the world over for loads of different sporting events, from F1 to stunt bikes, from aeroplanes to.... goodness knows what else. We are reaching a point where there are important people thinking about how much more sacrifice needs to be made on the great altar of the God of Formula 1 - the 'pinnacle of motorsport'. Of course the punters have heard of F1 and a lot less have heard of WEC (or whatever will follow), but that's a mindset and a media-savvy company like RB could begin to change that - if they wanted to. Look who won the BBC's 'SPOTY' this year - not 5 time F1 WDC Lewis Hamilton, but a guy that won the Tour de France. (Not that I'm intending to demean that achievement).

And not that I'll believe any of this RB to WEC stuff in the first place until I actually see it......

BTW, has anyone mentioned to Horner that there's a couple of Ginettas going begging at the moment.......

[TF110]

I had a thought that if McLaren and/or Ferrari join, the series is near automatic big-time status. The wec secures one or both of them to play alongside Toyota and Aston Martin and it'll make headlines. I think there's something big lurking in the background and that's why the wec made this hypercar move. I hope so at least.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by CTD

Hello.
Im getting pretty confused with these "new" EVO rules which was going to rule in 2010!
Are they thrown in the bin, are they "on hold", or are they going to count in 2010?.
I've tried to read about it here on Ten-Tenths but also on other forums, and im just confused, so if someone just could say whats counting i would be happy!

I felt like quoting the opening post of this thread from 10 years ago. It still pretty much describes the situation we are currently in.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

BTW, has anyone mentioned to Horner that there's a couple of Ginettas going begging at the moment.......

What, you don't think he follows the WEC close enough to know Ginetta's current toils and troubles?

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Look who won the BBC's 'SPOTY' this year - not 5 time F1 WDC Lewis Hamilton, but a guy that won the Tour de France.

About as many people watch the TdF as F1 .... simply because the thing is on for four hours a day for three weeks straight.

In terms of exposure, prestige, and sponsorship dollars, F1 is pretty much the whole "heap" in motorsports, not just "top of the heap."

Winning teams in F1 make serious cash.

Winning teams in WEC barely make headlines.

[Akrapovic]

I don't think Red Bull (or anyone else) cares about WEC. They do however, care about Le Mans. If Red Bull want a WEC program, it's for the Le Mans victories, nothing else.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I don't think Red Bull (or anyone else) cares about WEC. They do however, care about Le Mans. If Red Bull want a WEC program, it's for the Le Mans victories, nothing else.

That can change if certain brands join the series. And with running the wec a necessity to do Le Mans, it improves it's status. A few years ago with Audi and Porsche still involved it was seen a lot differently than it is now with Toyota the only manufacturer left. In two or three years I think that goes back to 2016 levels of importance IF a big name or two joins.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I don't think Red Bull (or anyone else) cares about WEC. They do however, care about Le Mans. If Red Bull want a WEC program, it's for the Le Mans victories, nothing else.

Insightful insight.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I don't think Red Bull (or anyone else) cares about WEC. They do however, care about Le Mans. If Red Bull want a WEC program, it's for the Le Mans victories, nothing else.

Which is why WEC never should've been a "series" with "rounds", but rather a loosely tied together "collection" of big events worth winning on their own. In those big events - which there would only be handful - you may also integrate grids with regional ACO series.

And Le Mans wouldn't even be part of it, but rather return to separate one-off status. You may earn auto invites for it by winning those other big events the previous year (or the existing regionals), but you wouldn't automatically receive freebie entry just by being participant. That would also fix some of the issues with grid limitations

EXAMPLE
Round 1 Mar - Sebring 1000 Miles or 10 Hours (LM auto invites offered)
Round 2 May - Europe I 1000KM (w/ Euro LMS and MLMC)
Round 3 Jul - Europe II 1000KM (w/ Euro LMS and MLMC)
Round 4 Aug - Japan 1000KM (w/ Asian LMS and maybe SGT)
Round 5 Sep - Kyalami 9 Hours (LM auto invites offered)
Round 6 Oct - Road Atlanta 1000 Miles or 10 Hours (LM auto invites offered)

Two top teams that collected best results all year receive LM auto invites as well but there is no "championship" in line for anything, except maybe for overall chassis constructors

[Akrapovic]

I agree, but I think the ACO look at it the opposite way. They want a championship, so they use the prestige and positioning of Le Mans to force teams into the WEC - a championship they don't really want to run in (see Toyota trying to just do Le Mans, before being denied that).

I love WEC, but it's pretty clear that manufacturers don't. Maybe rather than pandering to manufacturers who never seem happy, they should be working on sustainable privateer regulations for LMP1. And then there's finally an excuse to drop Shanghai...

[Deleted]

They want to stop manufacturers from 'cherry picking' events - as was the case until around 2011 - yet they seem to have forget why the said 'cherry picking' existed... because for the most part the _championships_ are simply irrelevant to them, other than maybe having them as testing grounds (and extra showroom for corporate VIP guests). And in the future, with tech freeze, ban of testing and increased balance of performance to determine the outcome, even those testing grounds will become less important.

The concept of 'pyramid of endurance' is flawed, because there is no flexibility in it.

[Maelochs]

I see it sort of that FIA needs to make as much money as possible and Le Mans is the lever which can pry open the wallets of the manufacturers.

Racing is really expensive nowadays. Possibly privateers could not support enough events to get enough exposure for their sponsors to attract sponsors—many sports have seen that happen. The tech is needed to maintain performance and to move the sport forward.

Vintage racing is great, but for some reason, people would rather watch the latest tech on track. Otherwise, we could all go back to aluminum monocoques and four-cam injected ICUs and cheap, long-lasting tires (Continental makes a lot) and we could watch the same racing that thrilled us three or four decades ago.

For some reason, people seem to want to watch new cars, not old. And even an LMP2 is not cheap to build, own, or operate.

A lot of IndyCar fans talk about making the Indy 500 a one-off event—“Announce it and the will build the car and come.” None seem to ask who would pay for the cars—because 32 cars would lose and only one would get publicity commensurate with the expenses.

A one-ff le Mans might end up the same way—not enough privateers willing to buy cars for one race a year, not enough constructors willing to design and build chassis for people who can only use them once a year—and who couldn’t pay enough to make the undertaking profitable.

That is why FIA went with four LMP2 constructors—so that at least a couple wouldn’t lose too much money and disappear.

Yes, the WEC might be irrelevant to the auto manufacturers building LMP1s—but they have to pay their dues, which in this case means supporting the series.

I think that is why the FIA is Finally trying to get a handle on costs—they want the manufacturers to be less unhappy about having to race the rest of the season. The publicity will never be there, but if the cost isn’t quite so onerous, maybe the factories will be more willing to participate.

[carbsmith]

I think it's very much flawed to suggest that WEC commitment is keeping manufacturers from racing at Le Mans. For the better part of a decade before the creation of a world championship the manufacturer participation in the top class at Le Mans was at pretty much its lowest sustained point in history, but with a world championship for a brief moment there was a double digit factory entry at Le Mans for the first time since 1999. Audi and Toyota specifically wanted a world championship as long as and so they had someone to race against. Those races in places like China and America are what makes the R&D investment for Le Mans more palatable to boards and marketing departments, especially without anything like ALMS or JSPC around for prototype racing anymore.

If you go back through the years you'd be hard pressed to find many big time sports cars that only raced at Le Mans outside the years there was no championship run under the same regulations, in which they were still fairly scarce.

Thing about these regulations is they're poor as a stopgap though. They still depend too much on new technology and hardware that doesn't exist. Manufacturers could jump in during the 90s because the rules were setup to allow taking existing engines and a lot of chassis design and turn out a competitive car quickly, to the point Porsche won with an old Group C chassis twice and an ancient 935 based engine three times.

[TF110]

I agree with that on the series front. No one wants to just do Le Mans because that's a waste of money and effort to make a car and test just to potentially fail and have nothing to show for your investment. The wec is needed for that. Le Mans is always going to be first and biggest but to suggest no one cares about the wec is a joke imo. The fia/aco are right to make them run the series for an entry to LM. What needs to happen is a couple more big names to join and then the series will pick up steam again after vw left them high and dry.

[Oldtony]

Agreed that a WEC championship is vital to getting, and keeping manufacturer participation. A stand alone Le Mans is a failure.
The hypercar concept offers the opportunity for works teams and high level privateers to compete in machinery that is within the imaginative limits of the fans.

It is also within the reach of limited production specialist manufacturers, and in fact may be more attractive to them than say BMW, Mercedes and Audi.
To be attractive to teams the championship would need to include China and the Middle East where the interest in them as road (status) cars is at it's highest.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Agreed that a WEC championship is vital to getting, and keeping manufacturer participation. A stand alone Le Mans is a failure.
The hypercar concept offers the opportunity for works teams and high level privateers to compete in machinery that is within the imaginative limits of the fans.

It is also within the reach of limited production specialist manufacturers, and in fact may be more attractive to them than say BMW, Mercedes and Audi.
To be attractive to teams the championship would need to include China and the Middle East where the interest in them as road (status) cars is at it's highest.

Very true about China and the M.E. We might wish the tracks were more historical and not just f1 style but those markets pay for themselves if not the race altogether (Bahrain).

[The Snout]

The richness that I love about sports cars is the diversity over the years. Group 5, Group 6, Group C, GT1 and the various LMP's. Lot's of different looks and ideas up the front.

But I think the other side of that coin is the lack of continuity. It's been called the WSCC, WEC, WSCC, nothing, ILMC, back to WEC, plus C'ship of Makes, GT1 WC and those GT championships that have carried on the cause.

Some real equity for example has been built up in the name LMP1 over the last decade. Yet all that name recognition is going to be discontinued and replaced with Hypercar(or whatever it ultimately gets assigned). From a branding point of view that's seems a poor choice to me.

LMP1 has had Audi, Porsche, Peugeot Toyota etc invested a lot of money in winning under that category name, I think it's a waste to retire it. In building a viable World Championship I"d think they need all the continuity and brand recognition they can get.