New wing tests

[manwell]

Its been reported that the FIA is changing their parameters by increasing the load on the deflection test for the front wings.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85817

I think this is unfairly targeting Red Bull (and possibly Ferrari if they have worked out a system too)

The other week Mclaren and Mercedes asked for clarification on the ruling because...."they wanted confirmation that they were allowed to pursue such clever innovation themselves.

Without that approval, there was a risk of them engaging on an expensive development programme on such a wing system only for the FIA to outlaw it at a later date."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85758

Well how should Red Bull feel.
They already have pursued it, got it to work, Mac and Merc whine about it and now the FIA change the rules.

So instead of Mclaren and Mercedes losing money on the development, Red Bull will, because they have already developed it.

And if your going to help out all the other teams at least give Red Bull/Renault their equal engines.

[Nicholosophy]

Welcome to F1.

Teams will always tried to flex the rules as far as possible. The FIA will then push back to say "this is as far as we'll let you go".

RBR and Ferrari have passed every test to date. I bet you that they will pass the new tests at Spa as well. I'm sure each team undertakes the same tests when developing parts, so they'll go away now and see if their wings would pass the new tests. If not, they'll make them pass.

They may loose some performance, or they may not. The engineers are smart and will keep finding ways to get that extra performance no matter what the FIA do.

[ASCII Man]

This could very well work in Red Bulls favor, maybe Vettel would finally be able to overtake someone now.

And not just a backmarker.

[ljakse]

Originally Posted by manwell

So instead of Mclaren and Mercedes losing money on the development, Red Bull will, because they have already developed it.

Red Bull to lose money??
Have you somehow missed first 12 races of this season?
I'm sure McLaren&Mercedes wouldn't mind to get that kind of performance untill the end of season, and then have their wing outlawed.

[browney]

I gues it isn't really changing the rules because there was already an allowance to do this if the FIA thought teams were designing a wing that still flexed but passed the test.

However, I think that Ross Brawn/Mercedes complaining about something that technically passes a rule, but is not within the spirit of a rule very hypocritical!

[Knowlesy]

What a shame.

Bit like the other teams being unable to get a decent F-Duct and getting that banned as well.

[ljakse]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

What a shame.

Bit like the other teams being unable to get a decent F-Duct and getting that banned as well.

My thought too

[Marbot]

I'm glad that the FIA got the word "linear" in there, otherwise we would never hear the end of it.

[Rory]

Red Bull and Ferrari may well have passed the initial FIA tests, but as Ross Brawn said, the tests are not up to scratch. They only allow for an equivalent flexing relative to 50kg. I don't know what the loads are at 300km/h, but I assume they are a lot more.

The only thing McLaren are guilty of here is trying to stay within the spirit of the regulations (not to mention the rule that states that end plates must not drop below 85mm from the floor.

It's not like Ferrari to over step the 'spirit' of the regulations, so nothing new there. But Red Bull, desperate to win a championship after effectively having 4 cars in the series for quite some time now (and all the incumbent money that their title sponsor has ploughed in) will pull every trick in the book.

Make no bones about it - Macca, Brawn and Williams all have the ability to develop a wing that flexes to the extent that Red Bull's does. Does that make it fair? No, but then again, with the advantages that Whitmarsh alludes to being gained by the end plates bouncing off the tarmac, RB and Ferrari have - IMHO - gained quite a lot of points in the last couple of races, which I would deem to be illegal.

Bottom line is that FIA would not impose a test that will flex the wing to such an extent that there is a chance of snapping it (ouch, expensive test rig that). So they have this 50kg rule with 10mm flex allowance. Simply not enough and hence the reason why they will increase to 100kg @ 20mm. Still not enough and yes, the teams will build a wing that stays within those parameters, yet flexes at higher downforce levels.

All said and done, RB's wing will flex less and Macca/Brawn's et al, will flex more. The second a lap gap that RB have in the bag will be reduced to such an extent that we should see an end to run away victories like Hungary (I hope at least).

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Rory

Still not enough and yes, the teams will build a wing that stays within those parameters, yet flexes at higher downforce levels.

But this is why it is important that the word "linear" is used in the new ruling.

[ljakse]

Originally Posted by Rory

The only thing McLaren are guilty of here is trying to stay within the spirit of the regulations (not to mention the rule that states that end plates must not drop below 85mm from the floor.

No, they only feel stupid for not thinking of it earlier.
They didn't seem to follow the spirit of the rules with F-duct, but found a loophole in regulations, so why would they bother now??

BTW, I'm a huge McLaren fan.

[wnut]

I am confused. If there is a test specified and the car passes said test then why is there not a three year period required to alter the test, clearly a different test is a change in regulation.
Brawn came up with the double diffuser and McLaren the F-duct which were both clearly outside the spirit of the regulations.
Red Bull produce a legal wing that complies with the tests and the tests are promptly changed.
McLaren and Merc/Brawn should have to make one too.
So much for all the technical innovation and......

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wnut

So much for all the technical innovation and......

Bendy wings are hardly a new development. Getting them to bend having passed a specific test is the trick. Not really a useful trick outside anything other than F1 front wings I would have thought. Maybe Red Bull can fit it to their road cars? Oh wait, they don't have road cars do they?

Nothing 'bendy' on the Brawn diffuser or McLaren F-Duct. No one complained about them because they were 'bendy'. They (Red Bull included) did complain about 'bendy' rear wings though, hence the F-Duct and double diffuser.

[tristancliffe]

Originally Posted by manwell

Its been reported that the FIA is changing their parameters by increasing the load on the deflection test for the front wings.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85817

I think this is unfairly targeting Red Bull (and possibly Ferrari if they have worked out a system too)

The other week Mclaren and Mercedes asked for clarification on the ruling because...."they wanted confirmation that they were allowed to pursue such clever innovation themselves.

Without that approval, there was a risk of them engaging on an expensive development programme on such a wing system only for the FIA to outlaw it at a later date."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85758

Well how should Red Bull feel.
They already have pursued it, got it to work, Mac and Merc whine about it and now the FIA change the rules.

So instead of Mclaren and Mercedes losing money on the development, Red Bull will, because they have already developed it.

And if your going to help out all the other teams at least give Red Bull/Renault their equal engines.

No rule has changed. Flexible bodywork is not allowed, and the FIA reserved the right to change the test loads to ensure that flexi-wings didn't come back. Effectively RBR broke the rules by allowing the wings to flex, even if it passed the test.

[duke_toaster]

It's just common sense. The rules are that movable aerodynamic devices (including intentionally flexing wings) are banned. To quote Rick Astley, you know the rules and so do I. The rules also say that the FIA can tweak the tests to make sure that we don't get flexiwings. That's what the FIA have done.

[GTRMagic]

I would doubt that Mr Newey's invention is not legal as the rules currently stand, but that's not to say that the FIA may not interpret their future use as not in the 'spirit' of the rules...

A shame if it happens... that RBR6 is a weapon in every single corner!

[RichardRenes]

They don't need to test at 100 kg and 20 mm, since that is basically the same as 50 kg and 10 mm. The flexing of a front wing will be like a spring, and every spring has a constant factor about how much you can compress/ flex it at a certain load.. and that constant works linear.

They should test at 51 kg and 10 mm

[Rory]

Why is it a shame GTRMagic? I see RB gaining an unfair advantage here. As other have said, flexible wings are outlayed.... just because it doesn't flex to that extent during a test, does not mean it is not flexing during the race. Any idiot can see the advantage they are gaining. And rumours of the floor flexing as well.... it's little wonder they have downforce levels out of this world.

It's a bit like having some trick engine that pokes out 19,000rpm on a test rig and FIA test, but put on the track, somehow mamages to produce another 1000rpm. Sure, they passed the FIA tests but it's cheating in my book, same as the rule that says 85mm above floor.

In any case, if it's deemed legal, then McLaren will just replicate it. But I suspect we will no longer see end plates touching the ground in Spa.

[Spritle]

More Mac winging since the "greatest driver in F1" didn't score any points and dropped out of first place and old Jenson looked lost out there.

They're just ****ed they didn't think of it first and can't figure it out now. If they did it would be fine.

[browney]

Originally Posted by Rory

It's a bit like having some trick engine that pokes out 19,000rpm on a test rig and FIA test, but put on the track, somehow mamages to produce another 1000rpm. Sure, they passed the FIA tests but it's cheating in my book, same as the rule that says 85mm above floor. .

I don't think the flexi wings are quite in the same book because anything they use will deflect under load some-what, so in some ways the test acts as a limit for the flex. You can't really ban materials from deflecting at all under stress any more than you can ban them for expanding when they get hot.

All said, the flexible wings that RBR and Ferrari have developed should be against the rules if movable aero is banned.

[Fox89]

Originally Posted by Spritle

More Mac winging since the "greatest driver in F1" didn't score any points and dropped out of first place and old Jenson looked lost out there.

They're just ****ed they didn't think of it first and can't figure it out now. If they did it would be fine.

This isn't like double diffusers or F-Ducts which are technically legal because, although creative, they still comply to the wording of the regulations. This is about something technically illegal that passes a test.

Would you still call it "winging" if Red Bull had fitted a turbo to their engine and simply found a way to hide it from scrutineers? Or would you consider that gaining an unfair advantage?

[jab]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

This could very well work in Red Bulls favor, maybe Vettel would finally be able to overtake someone now.

And not just a backmarker.

You mean someone like, say, Michael Schumacher?

Oh wait, he is a backmarker

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by NickoGP

Teams will always tried to flex the rules as far as possible..

Was that deliberate?

[alc]

Originally Posted by RichardRenes

They don't need to test at 100 kg and 20 mm, since that is basically the same as 50 kg and 10 mm. The flexing of a front wing will be like a spring, and every spring has a constant factor about how much you can compress/ flex it at a certain load.. and that constant works linear.

Sorry, this is not necessarily so, because a preload can be arranged - but don't ask me how it's done with a wing.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by alc

Sorry, this is not necessarily so, because a preload can be arranged - but don't ask me how it's done with a wing.

There are ways to create a structure with a non-linear relationship between load and deflection, preloading the structure is one, another is to design a hollow section which changes shape and therefore moment of resistance as it bends, sort of a controlled and reversible buckling effect, I am sure there are many others, tricky stuff but limited only by the engineer's imagination .