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Old 27 Oct 2016, 19:30 (Ref:3683441)   #76
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Originally Posted by Fechna View Post
The question is: What is more important in touringcar racing: a: High performance & tech cars OR b: big grid sizes and competitive private teams and drivers.
IMHO point A is not important in touring car racing at all.

WTCC needs works teams, but without excessive costs, so with less expensive cars. FIA doesn't understand this point, so WTCC will die in few years.
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 08:45 (Ref:3683560)   #77
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It might not be important for you from a spectators point of view, but it is important from a manufacturers point of view.

Spectators judge a series based on grids, drivers and spectacle.
Manufacturers judge a series based on exposure/marketing value and the possibility to promote their technology.
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 13:02 (Ref:3683610)   #78
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IMHO point A is not important in touring car racing at all.

WTCC needs works teams, but without excessive costs, so with less expensive cars. FIA doesn't understand this point, so WTCC will die in few years.
+1

@Bramzel

Maybe it´s important for manufacturers, but the popularity of touringcars in europe in a generally declining market for racing is way too small outside the UK and Germany that we´ll see a full grid of works cars anytime soon.

Privateers are and always have been the backbone of almost all racing series, especially touringcars. But try to think of F1 only consisting of pure works teams: 2 Mercedes, 2 Hondas, 2 Renaults, 2 Ferraris... thats 8 cars...
WEC with only works teams: 2 Toyotas, 2 Porsches, 2 Audis, 2 Astons, 2 Fords, 2 Ferraris... thats 12 cars. WRC: 3 VWs, 2 Hyundays, 3 Fords and 2 Citroens... thats 10 cars.

Come on guys, I can´t believe you think that WTCC doesn´t need privateers to survive. And neither the organizers and Ribeiro does.

Last edited by Fechna; 28 Oct 2016 at 13:07.
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 13:23 (Ref:3683618)   #79
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I mostly agree with you Fechna, I'm just trying to make clear that there are different stakes for the different parties. Spectators, organisation and manufacturers, each has its own agenda.
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 13:48 (Ref:3683621)   #80
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Isn't the best way forward the DTM model (not DTM regs) of several teams running the same cars from manufacturers? Personally, I think the WTCC should adopt TCR rules.
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 18:37 (Ref:3683685)   #81
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Isn't the point of TCR that it is part of a ladder system with WTCC at the top and TCR a couple of rungs lower down. Suggesting WTCC and TCR merge is like suggesting F1 merges with GP3.
Is it? Maybe in the beginning but IMO we are beyond that point.
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 18:39 (Ref:3683687)   #82
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The question is: What is more important in touringcar racing: a: High performance & tech cars OR b: big grid sizes and competitive private teams and drivers. Both is at this time not in the cards. If you want A, stay TC1 or move to Class One. If you want B, TCR is the only answer in sight considering the fact that NGTC is way more expensive then TCR while not much superior in speed or racing quality.
Off course the answer is B
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 18:44 (Ref:3683690)   #83
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IMHO point A is not important in touring car racing at all.

WTCC needs works teams, but without excessive costs, so with less expensive cars. FIA doesn't understand this point, so WTCC will die in few years.
IMO in the ideal world (but realistic, otherwise I would say Supertouring ) is to some extend manufacturer support for teams. With manufacturer support I mean financial (sponsorship or prize fund), drivers and marketing support.

Last edited by FIRE; 29 Oct 2016 at 11:48.
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 06:18 (Ref:3683771)   #84
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IMO in the ideal world (but realistic, otherwise I would say Supertouring ) is to some extend manufacturer support for teams. With manufacturer support I mean financial (sponsorshop or prize fund), drivers and marketing support.
Absolutely! Restricting TCR to private teams and drivers was one of the few mistakes Lotti made so far.
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Old 30 Oct 2016, 18:20 (Ref:3684070)   #85
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Absolutely! Restricting TCR to private teams and drivers was one of the few mistakes Lotti made so far.
Another big mistake of lotti was to make enter audi s3 sedan in tcr cause will dominate series creating lots problems to all other manufacture.
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Old 30 Oct 2016, 20:23 (Ref:3684092)   #86
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Another big mistake of lotti was to make enter audi s3 sedan in tcr cause will dominate series creating lots problems to all other manufacture.
Why do you doubt the Balance of Performance?
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Old 31 Oct 2016, 06:49 (Ref:3684197)   #87
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Another big mistake of lotti was to make enter audi s3 sedan in tcr cause will dominate series creating lots problems to all other manufacture.
Why would it? It's mechanically identical to the Golf and Leon.
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Old 31 Oct 2016, 09:53 (Ref:3684227)   #88
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It isn't a problem in BTCC.
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Old 31 Oct 2016, 10:06 (Ref:3684233)   #89
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Absolutely! Restricting TCR to private teams and drivers was one of the few mistakes Lotti made so far.
No it's not. GT3 works perfectly with private teams, supported by factories. There's no reason why it wouldn't work with TCR. Factory teams on the other hand would escalate costs and politics rapidly.

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Another big mistake of lotti was to make enter audi s3 sedan in tcr cause will dominate series creating lots problems to all other manufacture.
Why on earth would it dominate? If any car dominates it'll be BoPped, just look at GT3 again. There's no dominating GT3 car.
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Old 31 Oct 2016, 16:18 (Ref:3684312)   #90
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No it's not. GT3 works perfectly with private teams, supported by factories. There's no reason why it wouldn't work with TCR. Factory teams on the other hand would escalate costs and politics rapidly.
It doesn't in BTCC AFAIK with Honda, Subaru and MG.

Works teams elevate the level of the drivers, media exposure, and to a certain degree continuity. I mean the worst thing about TCR International is the relatively small amount of drivers that compete all season long.

But I guess we're far OT right now.

Last edited by Fechna; 31 Oct 2016 at 16:24.
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Old 31 Oct 2016, 18:11 (Ref:3684349)   #91
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Yes the manufacturer backing gives teams financial stability and also means more top quality drivers get involved
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Old 31 Oct 2016, 18:13 (Ref:3684351)   #92
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With all due respect, but I don't see Honda, Subaru and MG in BTCC as factory teams, they're privateers with factory support. They aren't the Same as the factory teams in WTCC or WEC. Factory involvement to me is more than a shell and some stickers.
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Old 31 Oct 2016, 20:18 (Ref:3684376)   #93
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In NASCAR for example with Hendrick/Chevy and Roush/Ford it works pretty well...

"Factory" can also mean testing and drivers budget. And of course marketing.
And thats the way to go.
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Old 1 Nov 2016, 07:19 (Ref:3684460)   #94
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With all due respect, but I don't see Honda, Subaru and MG in BTCC as factory teams, they're privateers with factory support. They aren't the Same as the factory teams in WTCC or WEC. Factory involvement to me is more than a shell and some stickers.
Yes and for that reason they are more sustainable as a result, personally I think the semi works arrangement is a good one.

The BTCC regs also make car build by an independently funded team possible, but do the WTCC regs? In which case no new manufacturers will eventually lead to no cars as the current ones get too old, accident damaged or just not competitive enough to keep running them.

Does touring car racing actually need a WTCC? It is expensive to run, is not sufficiently dragging in manufacturers and from the admittedly few races I have watched has not had big crowds.
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Old 1 Nov 2016, 08:09 (Ref:3684462)   #95
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Yes and for that reason they are more sustainable as a result, personally I think the semi works arrangement is a good one
Then we agree on that one You see it in GT3 as well with teams like AF Corse Ferrari and WRT Audi. And also in TCR actually, with WestCoast Honda and WRT Volkswagen.

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Does touring car racing actually need a WTCC? It is expensive to run, is not sufficiently dragging in manufacturers and from the admittedly few races I have watched has not had big crowds.
Perhaps not to the general fans, but for the manufacturers I do think a WTCC platform is necessary. They need a platform to display their products worldwide.
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Old 1 Nov 2016, 15:13 (Ref:3684561)   #96
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You see it in GT3 as well with teams like AF Corse Ferrari and WRT Audi. And also in TCR actually, with WestCoast Honda and WRT Volkswagen.

Perhaps not to the general fans, but for the manufacturers I do think a WTCC platform is necessary. They need a platform to display their products worldwide.
Just that Honda is too cheap to pay 2-3 top drivers to drive all season long as Seat Sport.

I prefer a European or World Championship. It's prestige, pressure and usually more very good drivers. The one thing that sucked about Supertouring was the lack of on competition between all the best drivers and teams. (At least from a non British perspective :-) )
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Old 1 Nov 2016, 19:09 (Ref:3684608)   #97
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Looks like TCR might get a little more love from at least one manufacturer soon:

http://www.touringcartimes.com/2016/...rc-withdrawal/
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 14:10 (Ref:3684761)   #98
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http://www.motorsport.com/wtcc/news/...c-2017-843938/

Chilton only have half the budget for 2017. He is waiting for sponsors.
If he can't find it all he could go back to his RML Cruze or to Blancpain GT
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 14:30 (Ref:3684767)   #99
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I hope he stays, he's matured a lot as a driver since his early days
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Old 2 Nov 2016, 14:53 (Ref:3684773)   #100
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He dissapointed me this year though. After his performance in the Cruze I expected more of him in the Citroën.
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