Red flags.....whose responsibility?

[Dave Brand]

In the Bike Facing Forum one of the members has stated that any marshal should be able to red flag a race without reference to Race Control.

OK, let's see how many marshals agree with this!

[EvilPumpkin]

My own feeling is Race Control - here's my reasons:

1. Consistency of flaggers is difficult to maintain and what one flaggie would consider a red, another may not - this leads to arguments and accusations - same applies if it's the IO/Observer/Crew Captain/Radio Op or whatever - some are better/more experienced/less prone to immediate reaction than others.

2. Leading on from the above, this can lead to on post committee meetings about who should have done what - which if you have a session that really DOES need to be stopped, is stopping you concentrating on the issue in hand.

3. How many times have we all seen an incident where something horrendous happens and we think we're going to have to run for it - only to have the rider pick up his bike and bugger off! Once a red goes out, you can't take it back in again.

4. Race Control are in a position to know exactly at what point the session is at in terms of laps/time and what will be involved in running the session again. I wouldn't want to be the marshal that threw a red flag in the middle of a championship round on a circuit with a curfew when there wasn't enough time to re-run the race.

5. There needs to be a designated starting point for a red flag to go out. Suddenly sticking a red flag out in front of a rider in the middle of a pack with no warning is just as dangerous as not doing it at all - unless they all see it at the same time, you could cause a 2nd accident. At least with the circuit "round robin" approach they're going to see it going out with some consistency and be at least slightly forewarned when it goes out in their sector.

6. Race control is made up of organisers - they're the people who have to do the investigation and hearings and all of that ****. Do you really want to have to give up time from work to go to a hearing about a red flag that was put out?

7. I've never had a session stop refused when I asked for one - I personally trust the bike organisers here to prioritise both my safety and the safety of the riders - and I have never been proved wrong in this trust.

[jase]

Agree with you EP, Race Control have a better view of the whole picture of the session currently active.

A marshal should be able to tell Race Control that a Red is needed because"X hit Y and is in Z position" etc, but the overall decision has to remain in Race Control's hands.

[sss]

well its an easy choice, but i couldnt find 'the bunny' in the options so guess it will have to be race control, but dont forget the litigation situation, if its down to race control then its her head on the block

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by sss
well its an easy choice, but i couldnt find 'the bunny' in the options so guess it will have to be race control, but dont forget the litigation situation, if its down to race control then its her head on the block

Gee SSS, some of our girlie race controllers over here have very deep voices - you sure they are all female??

[sss]

theres not many over, although it wouldnt surprise me if some wore dresses at certain functions, just thought i would use she's instead of he's to make a change

[asha]

hehe.. looks like i'm the odd one out!

But as sss said, "then its her head on the block", so what sort of block are we talking about??

What sort of punishment can you give??

[sss]

Originally posted by asha
hehe.. looks like i'm the odd one out!

But as sss said, "then its her head on the block", so what sort of block are we talking about??

What sort of punishment can you give??

well she is the one that has to stand up at coroners court,crown court etc and justify there actions,
and if a marshal is unhappy at the actions of the race director then its down to that marshal to leave that club, walk out of the meeting or get the muscle in the organisation to change the race director,

[Manxcoastracing]

Hailing from a background of the TT Races in the Isle of Man , position I take is same as our dear Pumpkin .TT Marshals are under instruction NOT to reed flag unless authorised by Clark of the Course , who reponds to request from either Chief Sector Marshal or Travelling Marshal .We ahve a 37.73 mile course , and up to 80-90 riders strung out along it , its a fairly major decision to stop such a race .These are public roads under a road closure order from the Government and cannot over-run .Best thing we as course marshals have found , is to give Race Control / Clerk of the Course as much information as possible , they have done and will red flag at our request .

[pixie]

These are public roads under a road closure order from the Government and cannot over-run

This does stop vehicles getting out on to the course, as i understand last year 2 vans made t on the circuit whilst racing/practice was still live

[sss]

is someone going to help asha out so he isnt the only one to vote for any marshal?

[blueflagger]

Not me.

Here in the US, it's Race Control that makes the call for both cars and bikes. However, the marshal/observer can request Control to "stop the session" (using those words). This is handy because with our open landline & radio system, all stations know to get ready so the flags come out quickly when called for.

The system works well for us. We once had a new Starter throw a red flag on his own at an ice race because a car had rolled. The result was a second car rolling right in front of the very startled Starter.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally posted by asha
hehe.. looks like i'm the odd one out!

But as sss said, "then its her head on the block", so what sort of block are we talking about??

What sort of punishment can you give??

A lot depends on the level of racing you're talking about - at clubman level, organisers are voluntary - I know in some sectors of motorsport at higher levels they are paid individuals - however, it rarely changes that marshals are volunteers.

However, at Club level, this is what is likely to happen to any marshal unfortunate to stick out a red flag that others feel is unjustified:

Firstly there will be dozens of competitors that put in complaints and protests. The marshal will be grilled by the organisers at the circuit. Then there will be an investigation - if legal action is being taken. There's the unpaid time off work to attend the hearings. There's the sitting in a little room whilst a bunch of people who have probably never been closer to a racing circuit than the corporate suite grill you on your actions and tie you in knots. Eventually there will be a decision issued that will probably be designed to depict you in the worst light possible.

Then of course there's the public pillory that will be set up in forums all over the internet where the whole world (or whatever subsection is interested) will debate your every action - and everyone is an expert but you.

At that point, you probably decide to leave motorsport for good. And motorsport loses yet another hard working, probably well qualified, volunteer.

[paul.hickman]

Seems like an interesting debate - but I'm not too sure why as there is only one correct answer - and that is the decision to 'red flag' a race is that of the clerk of the course (not race control). Humble observers such as myself 'request' a race/practice stop but we can (and have been) denied such requests. Should it be that way? - yes, otherwise uncertainty and subjectivity prevails (also known as anarchy) and, as EP says (quite strongly - hmm?) there would in all likely be an inquisition (sorry, inquiry)...

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by paul.hickman
Seems like an interesting debate - but I'm not too sure why as there is only one correct answer - and that is the decision to 'red flag' a race is that of the clerk of the course (not race control).

We, as marshals, know there is only one correct answer; however, as the following statements had been made:

>>Its complete bull**** that only the race director as the appility to red flag a race... its just stupid!<<
>>solution:
Allow marshells to red flag the race when accidents are involved. <<

I thought it would be interesting to see if I could find one marshal who wanted the authority to 'red flag' without reference to the person actually responsible for such decisions.

Humble observers such as myself 'request' a race/practice stop but we can (and have been) denied such requests. Should it be that way? - yes, otherwise uncertainty and subjectivity prevails (also known as anarchy) and, as EP says (quite strongly - hmm?) there would in all likely be an inquisition (sorry, inquiry)...

......and observers just hate having to hang around after a meeting because somebody's entered a protest!

[paul.hickman]

I thought it would be interesting to see if I could find one marshal who wanted the authority to 'red flag' without reference to the person actually responsible for such decisions.

OK, but when you find him/her - please don't put them as part of my team!

......and observers just hate having to hang around after a meeting because somebody's entered a protest!

Unfortunately it goes with the territory when you took 'high office' old chap - but try forcibly but politely telling the Clerk that you will only be available until a certain time. It works...

[Bob Pearson]

I was in a sidecar race many years ago on an airfield circuit when the race was started before the recovery van had returned from the previous race. Part way round the first lap we came upon the corner where the van was beating a hasty retreat on seeing us coming. I was about sixth and the marshall at the post where the van was immeadiately put out a red flag which myself and the drivers in front complied with. In a matter of a couple of seconds other bikes were overtaking us, I looked over my shoulder and the flag had been taken back in. Although I am sure the marshall put the flag out through genuine concern for us all, I think it ubderlines the need to do these things in a calm orderly fashion.
To demonstrate that the sytem doesn't really hold up the timely provision of medical care. My son did a series of pitch poll rolls through a field at Croft a couple of seasons ago, speaking to one of the marshalls afterwards he said that he had called for a red while the car was still in the air. The result was that the doctor was on hand so quickly that my son was still walking back through the field when he met him coming the other way. Difficult to provide a better service than that!

[sss]

many years ago once upon a time, i was looking after a corner at a dark dreary circuit some where in the country, we were racing bikes there and at the time it was a circuit that didnt run many bike meetings. due to some politics we had the local marshals and us, and things were plodding along ok, until one of our fallers came in and after his 100mph+ get off was a little winded and wanted to lie down for a moment or to, so as to get his breath back.
i didnt ask for a race stoppage for various reasons, unbeknown to me (till after the meeting) the observer had picked up the telephone and was asking race control for a race stoppage and medical assistance. this was refused as i hadnt asked for anything. the rider then got up and was loaded into the back of the van with his dented bike.
one marshal wanted a race stoppage, the io didnt, that was down to inexperience of bike accidents, but had they been on the flags that would have ended that race for no reason at all if allowed to red flag at will.

[blueblackboy]

I think the idea of any marshal putting a red out has some merit. There are numerous times I can remember wanting to put a red flag out - usually to end a very dull race and get the next lot out - and not being able to is sometimes very frustrating!

[Flagman]

It must be the decision of Race Control - that is what they are there for.

Having said that I have red-flagged a race 'from the bank ' - but that was in very special circumstances where -

A car had demolished the marshals post and the telephone link.

The observer was obviously very badly injured.

The post was out of sight of the adjoining observers posts.

I needed help urgently.

It was an instant decision for which I was prepared to accept any consequences.

[sss]

A car had demolished the marshals post and the telephone link.

maybe radios are better than phones, doh wrong thread

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by paul.hickman
OK, but when you find him/her - please don't put them as part of my team!

Should such a situation occur, I can think of a suitable place to stick the red flag!

Unfortunately it goes with the territory when you took 'high office' old chap - but try forcibly but politely telling the Clerk that you will only be available until a certain time. It works...

I have never taken, nor do I aspire to, such high office; I just take a certain sadistic pleasure from seeing you poor unfortunates wandering around muttering ' protest' when I'm on my way home!

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Bob Pearson
I was about sixth and the marshall at the post where the van was immeadiately put out a red flag which myself and the drivers in front complied with. In a matter of a couple of seconds other bikes were overtaking us, I looked over my shoulder and the flag had been taken back in. Although I am sure the marshall put the flag out through genuine concern for us all, I think it ubderlines the need to do these things in a calm orderly fashion.

Nothing like making a mistake & 'correcting' it with a bigger one, is there? Firstly, if there's a slow-moving vehicle on the track, the appropriate flag is the white (or a yellow if the white is not in use). Secondly, if you, for whatever reason, rightly or otherwise, show a red, you must keep it out; having some competitors thinking the race/session has been stopped & others carrying on racing is a recipe for disaster! You will have ample time to discuss your actions with the CoC.......

[paul.hickman]

Once its out, its out!! I remember an incident at Brands some years ago where the Clerk hit the red button - then cancelled it a second later! However, the bright eyed flaggies had seen it ... and, youv'e guessed ... there were lots of pretty red flags ... and do you know, the honourable Clerk tried to deny the red had come on!!

As for putting a red out during a dull race, I have to say that it has some considerable merit! And in circumastances such as those given by 'Flagman', no argument, 'force majeur' rules and the flag goes out!

[EvilPumpkin]

I believe that the boring race option was covered by a rather good post here a while back arguing the introduction of the grey flag. If the grey flag goes out on more than 60% of marshals posts on the circuit, the race is too boring to continue and must be stopped!