Use of the Hard Shoulder During Rush Hour

[Carrie]

Just heard on the news about a possible plan to start using the hard shoulder of the motorway during rush hour. I'd be interested in people's opinions on this? It was saying that there are possible plans to trial it on the M40 soon. It seems a crazy idea, especially on motorways that have a lot of junctions. You'll have traffic having to merge off the hard shoulder all the time to avoid junctions. Then of course there's the whole issue of emergency vehicles and any broken down vehicles.

[sss]

this is bad news, i have the pleasure of working on motorways for a trade, and a recent prime example was during the winter we had the snow block the m25. we tried to get to the front to deal with the snow, ice and the jackknifed lorries but

quess what

yes, people who are far more important and in a rush were all on the hard shoulder and stuck, so we had 4 lanes of traffic going nowhere and we couldnt get to the front of the queue to deal with the problem.

[Don K]

Here in the Netherlands it's been working quite well during the past 5 years.

Of course, it is only allowed at selected sections of some motorways with lots of traffic. It's indicated by automated signs (which can be hand-controlled to deal with special situations), and AFAIK never at the junctions.

Apart from that, we've got some sections of motorway on which public buses are allowed to use the hard shoulder.

[Tristan]

The hard shoulder would only be used at low speeds - creeping traffic and jams - to ease the congestion. So anyone worreid about "doing an Alonso" and steam into some truck's discarded wheel at 80-odd mph needn't worry. Apparently.

[Tristan]

...but sss makes a very good point.

[sss]

the other problem you have is the hard shoulder at sections where they wish to do this would have to be rebuilt, as the majority of hard shoulder in this country is not manufactured to the same degree as the main carriageway. likewise its thinner concrete/tarmac in lane 3+ as these are not designed to carry large vehicles. (can be fun to watch a fully laden artic sinking after being on the hard shoulder in hot weather for hours) the other problem is the width of the hard shoulder is narrower than the main carriageway

[woodyracing]

I think on our roads its a bad idea, it sounds like a cheap option for the congestion.
Also the hard shoulders are very rough and uneven and they collect a lot of debris.
I think worst of all is that there would be no where to pull off if you break down or get a puncture, and no easy access for emergency services.

[yorkie]

Why don't they just put another lane on? We motorists pay enough tax for it.

And while they're about it, get rid of the F****** M4 bus lane. What a stupid idea that was.

[garcon]

Absolutely loony idea and potential disaster. Whichever government idiot that thought this up evidently doesn't drive. Whoever it was should be taken out and shot. Yet another stunt by a government that has no interest in actually trying to solve the problems.

A serious safety issue because emergency vehicles will be unable to get to incidents, and it won't even ease congestion much because as soon as something breaks down the chaos caused by a blocked lane will cause even worse gridlock. And a recipe for mayhem at or near junctions. And a potential carte blanche to the majority of morons out there to use the hard shoulder whenever they like.

Utter ****ing madness.

[Don K]

Originally posted by garcon
Absolutely loony idea and potential disaster. Whichever government idiot that thought this up evidently doesn't drive. Whoever it was should be taken out and shot. Yet another stunt by a government that has no interest in actually trying to solve the problems.

A serious safety issue because emergency vehicles will be unable to get to incidents, and it won't even ease congestion much because as soon as something breaks down the chaos caused by a blocked lane will cause even worse gridlock. And a recipe for mayhem at or near junctions. And a potential carte blanche to the majority of morons out there to use the hard shoulder whenever they like.

Utter ****ing madness.

In the Netherlands we encountered none of those problems during the 5 years since the introduction of this system ...

The system is very useful at sections with heavy traffic where there's absolutely no space to add an extra lane.
And there's probably always enough space to keep the junctions safe.
I guess the control system is supposed to be smart enough to prevent the hard shoulder from coming to a complete stop.

[medler]

I agree with SSS I drive a HGV and when I've had to drive on the Hard Shoulder (they are used as an extra lane in contraflows) I've found them very uneven which can make steering a laden truck difficult. It seems like a mad idea from a civil servant justifing their pay. Widing roads is only a short term solution the only way to reduce congestion is to reduce the volume of traffic.

[Carrie]

Originally posted by garcon
And a recipe for mayhem at or near junctions. And a potential carte blanche to the majority of morons out there to use the hard shoulder whenever they like.

Utter ****ing madness.

Yes, you only need to look at the number who think that they somehow have the right to use to hardshoulder to shoot down half a mile or more past queuing traffic just because they want to go off at the next junction. I certainly see that happening often enough at the busy interchange where I join the motorway.

I'm driving on the M60 everyday and I just see no feasible way that this plan could ever work. Don, I know you're saying it does work, but how do vehicle numbers compare between roads in Britain and the Netherlands. In the last 4 1/2 years that I've been doing my current commute I've watched the roads get busier and the standard of driving drop accordingly.

They're talking about this as a rush hour measure, well, just how many people will decide that they're a few minutes over the time that they can use the hard shoulder, but hey, wouldn't it be nice to cut up all this traffic and have that nice hard shoulder all to myself. Then the few minutes increases so that people are thinking they'll do that at all times of the day and on all sections of hardshoulder, regardless of whether they're sections intended for rush hour use or not.

I see enough of how many nutters we have on our roads and I just can't see any way that this idea would work. It sounds a recipe for disaster to me.

[Don K]

Originally posted by Carrie
Don, I know you're saying it does work, but how do vehicle numbers compare between roads in Britain and the Netherlands.

I'm not quite sure.

According to 1999 data, we have more cars per 1000 inhabitants (427 vs 418), but less cars per 1000 km road (58 vs 67).
Total amount of road traffic is less (109,955 vs 404,500 million km), but I don't know yet how that translates into amount of traffic per 1000 km road.

I've found some data about populations (2002): Netherlands 15,892,237 vs UK 59,508,382.

If we combine the data, we can get (an approximation of) the total number of cars (6,787,000 vs 24,875,000).
This leads us to the total amount of road (117,000,000 vs 371,000,000).
This gives us the amount of traffic per 1000 km: (939,800 vs 1,090,300 km).

So I guess the UK should have about 16% more congestion than the Netherlands.

As we have more traffic per 1000 inhabitants (6,919,000 vs 6,797,000 km) the problem seems to be the small amount of roads in the UK.

[loadsaaaTOP]

Why will it take a year for them to turn round and say, yes you may use the hard shoulder!!!

[Dave Brand]

How's about, as a start, letting cars use the left hand lane?

[garcon]

Wow.

with lateral thinking like that you should be in some kind of focus group...

[sss]

who would want a focus?

[Bluebottle]

This could be a nice little earner for the 'powers that be', bring on the 'Hard Shoulder Camera' to catch the umsuspecting motorist who's watch is 2 mins slow!!

[Don K]

Originally posted by Bluebottle
This could be a nice little earner for the 'powers that be', bring on the 'Hard Shoulder Camera' to catch the umsuspecting motorist who's watch is 2 mins slow!!

In that case, he has already been ignoring the repeated signs above the hard shoulder (telling him to switch lane) for at least 2 minutes.

[neilwaynesmith]

Originally posted by Don K
In that case, he has already been ignoring the repeated signs above the hard shoulder (telling him to switch lane) for at least 2 minutes.

Would these signs be operated by the same people who leave the 'fog' signs on when there has been blazing sunshine for two-three hours?

[Maisie]

And the mysterious "End" signs, and the one gantry on the M56 (I think) that's been playing Breakout with itself for about the last year

[Don K]

Originally posted by neilwaynesmith
Would these signs be operated by the same people who leave the 'fog' signs on when there has been blazing sunshine for two-three hours?

I don't know.

I assumed they are automated, and can be overruled in special occasions.

--------

Anyway:

If the signs indicate that you can use the hard shoulder, nobody is going to fine you for using the hard shoulder.

And if the signs indicate that you cannot use the hard shoulder, you won't get fined for not using the hard shoulder.

[sss]

Originally posted by neilwaynesmith
Would these signs be operated by the same people who leave the 'fog' signs on when there has been blazing sunshine for two-three hours?

they are automated, unfortuantely, the goverment officials of the highways agency and the like say that modernisation is a wonderfull thing and the way forward, so they made them automatic, and guess what they have there own view on what is foggy. although some go off from lack of maintance and a few other reasons.