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Old 21 Apr 2011, 19:42 (Ref:2867733)   #1251
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And now for something completely different!
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Old 21 Apr 2011, 19:44 (Ref:2867735)   #1252
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If it wasn't for that stupid fin on the back this car would look epic. The ACO really do have to have a rethink about the fin regulations, it's just way too big.

I'm not saying some sort of fin isn't needed, but lets have something that actually looks like a Shark fin, rather than as if a huge Plastic door has been glued to the back of the car.
The R18 has a larger fin than required.

http://a.yfrog.com/img620/5599/x9bxa.jpg
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Old 21 Apr 2011, 19:45 (Ref:2867738)   #1253
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The R18 has a larger fin than required.

http://a.yfrog.com/img620/5599/x9bxa.jpg
It's a bit of an illusion because the R18's rear wing is lower than on the Lola.
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Old 21 Apr 2011, 19:46 (Ref:2867740)   #1254
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Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
The R18 survived 2 30 hour tests at Sebring--probably the most demanding track on cars that sportscars race at--and the photos that Audi released were from a Paul Ricard test that was probably a 30 hour test, and aside from Monza, Paul Ricard because of that 3/4 of a mile Mistral Straight, is about as close to LM as you're gonna get nowadays with the old Hockenheim GP track being largely gone (a favorite Joest test ground because of it's resemblance to LM).

If the R18 can survived the worst that these two test circuits can throw at it, it'll probably survive LM, but that's not gurentee. Peugeot did 12 30 hour tests last year, but none of their cars finished because of unproven parts being added at the last minute.

As I said, Audi are playing it smart by designing a lightweight car first, as it's easier to add weight than to pare it off.
Testing can only get you so far.
Real racing where you push the cars a bit further is what break them
The 908's last year being a good example of this, as the they all blew when pushing.
ex. the Oreca 908 blew when they told it to run for 3rd.
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Originally Posted by gwyllion View Post
I don't expect any issues.

You have to see where they are saving weight:
  • monocoque: the single piece is lighter, but also stronger, than 2 pieces glued together -> very positive
  • bodywork: 40 kg weight saving between original and evolution 2 -> maybe only an issue in case of contact with other cars
  • engine: 25% lighter than V10 -> very logical consequence of displacement reduction
  • gearbox: similar to proven solution of Dome S102, which had a carbon fibre casing (see here), Xtrac internals and Zytek EGS (Electrically-assisted Gearshift System)
  • LED headlights -> proven technology in road cars
  • no air-conditioning -> one system less that can fail
Very true, but the gearbox is the part i feel is must vulnerable.
Comparing with the S102, isn't a true comparison, as the Judd V10 produced +500 lb-ft (from Mike's site) where as the Audi V6 will probably produce even more (the R15 V10 produced over 750, accordingly to Wiki), pressuring the gearbox. (Again very much like when Peugeot switched to a new metal in their rods)
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Old 21 Apr 2011, 19:56 (Ref:2867748)   #1255
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With all this emphasis of weight saving (for good balance and agility) and slick aerodynamics (for low drag), it seems that Audi expects to be down on power compared to the new 908. Peugeot on the other hand again put most of their effort in their engine by selecting the more logical V8 configuration.

I expect that the design choice of Audi will give then an advantage in the other ILMC races. However in Le Mans Peugeot might have the upper hand, because of the long straights.
With the new regs (smaller engine, same size air restrictor/same turbo boost, closed car), I believe that even if Audi is down on power, it'll be no where near as bad as it was before, and with reduced drag, any power shortfall won't mean as much. Peugeot have had to rebody their cars for LM, and you can't tell me that they're not facing the pinch brought on by reduced power. And if all Audi have to do to get the R18 in sprint spec is add diveplanes/deck gurney flaps and crank more rear wing in the car and Peugeot have to swap back to their Sebring body kit for Spa and the rest of the ILMC rounds, that means that under the regs, the Pugs "normal" body kit is carrying a fair bit of drag, not to mention the logisitics of two different aero kits.

Look at Red Bull and the supposidly down on power Renault engines. Being down on power hasn't hurt them, even at power tracks like China and Monza.
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Old 21 Apr 2011, 20:04 (Ref:2867755)   #1256
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Re the livery, I like it. Not quite as badass as all black carbon fiber. I take issue with calling it gray -- aircraft carriers are gray. This is silver, and it does put the signature of Germany on it in that color, while keeping carbon showing quite abit.
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Old 21 Apr 2011, 20:05 (Ref:2867756)   #1257
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Originally Posted by CTD View Post
Testing can only get you so far.
Real racing where you push the cars a bit further is what break them
The 908's last year being a good example of this, as the they all blew when pushing.
ex. the Oreca 908 blew when they told it to run for 3rd.

Very true, but the gearbox is the part i feel is must vulnerable.
Comparing with the S102, isn't a true comparison, as the Judd V10 produced +500 lb-ft (from Mike's site) where as the Audi V6 will probably produce even more (the R15 V10 produced over 750, accordingly to Wiki), pressuring the gearbox. (Again very much like when Peugeot switched to a new metal in their rods)
I agree with Gwyllion--the guts of the gearbox are what's most important here. Audi's gearbox internals are built by XTrac, and are probably similar to the FLM gearbox's (an Xtrac item designed jointly with Courage/Oreca), which Marshall Pruett says are built like something you'd find in a tank, a dump truck, or something powered by a WWII aircraft engine. And the fact that the V6 is making torque in the neighborhood of 600 or so ft/lbs probably helps, as the Corvette C6R GT1 made power and torque figures equivlant to the Audi V6 TDI.

That, and I don't think that the Dome blew their gearbox, and true gearbox issues are rare in F1 where carbon gearbox casings are common.

I'd be more concerned about the electronics on the R18 playing up than anything, as that CFD gearbox casing is likely pretty beefy (Audi used to run thinwall aluminum gearbox casings on the R10 and R15 because thinwall aluminum was stiffer and lighter than magnesium). I'll bet you that the wall thickness on their casing is pretty thick to increase durablily. Just as how the De Havilland method of ply/balsa/ply wooden construction for the Mosquito was lighter than a lot of aluminum structures in spite of being thicker. And I'll bet you that the aluminum sheet that Audi uses for their "ASF" aluminum unitbody cars is thicker than an equvilant steel sheet, but is still lighter.
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Old 21 Apr 2011, 20:20 (Ref:2867764)   #1258
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Very true, but the gearbox is the part i feel is must vulnerable.
Comparing with the S102, isn't a true comparison, as the Judd V10 produced +500 lb-ft (from Mike's site) where as the Audi V6 will probably produce even more (the R15 V10 produced over 750, accordingly to Wiki), pressuring the gearbox. (Again very much like when Peugeot switched to a new metal in their rods)
Carbon fibre gearbox housings are a well understood technology, which has been around for a very long time: http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ftpw017.html

I am sure the gearbox has seen many hours on the bench and on the track.
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Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
I agree with Gwyllion--the guts of the gearbox are what's most important here. Audi's gearbox internals are built by XTrac, and are probably similar to the FLM gearbox's (an Xtrac item designed jointly with Courage/Oreca).
Stiffness of the gearbox housing is also crucial because it has all the mounting points of the rear suspension. Remember the Peugeot suspension pickup points breaking of the carbon fibre tub. You don't want that to happen...
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Old 21 Apr 2011, 21:05 (Ref:2867784)   #1259
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Wouldn't that in part be tried on the bench/chassis dyno and rig testing, as well as the track testing. And also go back to what I said about the ply/balsa/ply sandwich composite vs Alclad and aluminum vs steel examples I gave in my previous comments. With a lighter material, that material needs to be thicker to ensure stiffness, but will still give a weight savings.

And as you've mentioned, this is now a proven technology. However it goes back to Marshall's comments about the R18 not having a conventional cassette type gear cluster/differential change, but being more modular to make up for it.
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Old 21 Apr 2011, 21:33 (Ref:2867806)   #1260
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I think the color scheme looks ok. It's a little bit similar to the colors on the 1999 Audi R8C at least as far as the sides go. Just a little bit similar. It's not the greatest scheme ever as it does look a little dull and a little bit like a mix and match of duct tape and electrical tape, but it is better than what Audi had last year. The #2 and #3 look a little better than the #1 at least from the pictures I've seen though.

It might have been nice if the Castrol sponsorship could have gotten us something like what Dyson ran last year or what the Jags ran back in the day, but I'm sure they are not pitching in that much dough.
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Old 21 Apr 2011, 21:56 (Ref:2867816)   #1261
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I really like the new liveries, especially the no. 1... Black and silver is sleek.
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Old 21 Apr 2011, 21:58 (Ref:2867819)   #1262
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Is Ultra going to be a brand for lightweight road cars?
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Old 21 Apr 2011, 22:12 (Ref:2867826)   #1263
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Is Ultra going to be a brand for lightweight road cars?
Yes. "Ultra" will one day be used to designate the road cars just like "Quattro", "E Tron", etc.

This is the entire theme behind the R18. Audis future road models will be focused on smaller engines and light weight composites. Audi could have built a powerful bi turbo V8 like Peugeot and went for a powerhouse race car, but it doesn't coincide with the brands future goals. This is the direction they want the Audi lineup to go, and they believe the best way to demonstrate it is on the racetrack.

I think they have really done a nice job with innovative ideas and pushing the envelope once again.
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Old 21 Apr 2011, 22:31 (Ref:2867835)   #1264
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Carbon fibre gearbox housings are a well understood technology, which has been around for a very long time: http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ftpw017.html

I am sure the gearbox has seen many hours on the bench and on the track.
Stiffness of the gearbox housing is also crucial because it has all the mounting points of the rear suspension. Remember the Peugeot suspension pickup points breaking of the carbon fibre tub. You don't want that to happen...
As the article points out, the biggest problem by far, and it's still an issue 20 years down the road, is maintaining stiffness as the 'box heats up. With an endurance car this has to be pretty difficult, 24 hours and all. Because the second the epoxy starts to break down that's it.
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Old 22 Apr 2011, 00:07 (Ref:2867882)   #1265
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Hence why it probably does have metal reinforcments.

I'll bet that as on the RS Spyder and the Dome that only certain parts are fully CFC. Anything that near intense heat or stress points will at the least have some aluminum or steel reinforements.
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Old 22 Apr 2011, 00:22 (Ref:2867888)   #1266
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Hence why it probably does have metal reinforcments.

I'll bet that as on the RS Spyder and the Dome that only certain parts are fully CFC. Anything that near intense heat or stress points will at the least have some aluminum or steel reinforements.
That goes without saying and is standard practice. You could never have a spinning bit of metal bearing on a carbon surface. Point is you have the added problem of metal to carbon bonding, the differing expansion/contraction rates when heated/cooled on top of keeping the carbon not even close to T sub g temps.
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Old 22 Apr 2011, 01:33 (Ref:2867913)   #1267
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Hence why it probably does have metal reinforcments.

I'll bet that as on the RS Spyder and the Dome that only certain parts are fully CFC. Anything that near intense heat or stress points will at the least have some aluminum or steel reinforements.
Reinforcements in the casing wouldnt help once the bonding starts to fall apart .

Mike ..... what temp can a gearbox get to , and whats the breakdown temp of carbon fibre ? Are you aware of any system of NDT that works in this day and age for CF . As far as I know , it doesnt exist ?

Also , any fatigue crack would quickly become contaminated with hot oil and detereiorate even quicker , breaking down the CF faster .
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Old 22 Apr 2011, 02:34 (Ref:2867922)   #1268
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Reinforcements in the casing wouldnt help once the bonding starts to fall apart .

Mike ..... what temp can a gearbox get to , and whats the breakdown temp of carbon fibre ? Are you aware of any system of NDT that works in this day and age for CF . As far as I know , it doesnt exist ?

Also , any fatigue crack would quickly become contaminated with hot oil and detereiorate even quicker , breaking down the CF faster .
The failure won't be in the CF from heat. The epoxy will fail first in that case.
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Old 22 Apr 2011, 03:08 (Ref:2867924)   #1269
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Reinforcements in the casing wouldnt help once the bonding starts to fall apart .

Mike ..... what temp can a gearbox get to , and whats the breakdown temp of carbon fibre ? Are you aware of any system of NDT that works in this day and age for CF . As far as I know , it doesnt exist ?

Also , any fatigue crack would quickly become contaminated with hot oil and detereiorate even quicker , breaking down the CF faster .
The easiest way to test that the manufactured component has reached desired thermal properties would be to take a trimmed off section, and test for the Tg.. hell, even catching the dust off a drilled hole and you can do that!

A common misconception is that it's the carbon that will degrade, it isn't, it's the resin matrix that holds the fibres together, certainly in this instant.
Most epoxy resins (assuming it's an epoxy based pre-preg used... although it could be something else with higher temperature properties.) tend to degrade badly around 200°C, although the Tg tends to be a lot lower, around 120-160°C. Tg is the glass transition, the point which resin goes from being a nice hard stiff substance (glassy, geddit!) to much more flexible.

There's two ways to measure the Tg; Heat flow (DSC - Differential scanning calorimetery) and mechanically (DMA - Dynamic Mechanical analysis). Genereally DMA needs a decent size sample, as it relys on loading a specimen repeatedly during a set temperature cycle. When the tg is reached, the properties change. Ok, it's not quite so simple, but gives an idea
DSC on the other hand works by measuring the heat flow between two small samples, so only requires around 14mg of material...

Other NDT methods for carbon components include ultrasounding (checking for voids in laminates), as well as mechanically testing off-cut panels... whether there's enough material to do so from a gearbox casing though, no idea!

(I work within R&D of composite components, so a know a little )

Back to the topic...
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Old 22 Apr 2011, 07:53 (Ref:2867981)   #1270
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Old 22 Apr 2011, 09:33 (Ref:2868005)   #1271
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what are the three little "stumps" on top of the front fenders in this pic?
http://www.fourtitude.com/gallery/ga...&dispsize=1024

I love the new liveries, #1 looks best because it kept most of its sinister appearance, but #3 also looks great with those bright yellow accents really sticking out!
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Old 22 Apr 2011, 09:36 (Ref:2868006)   #1272
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what are the three little "stumps" on top of the front fenders in this pic?
http://www.fourtitude.com/gallery/ga...&dispsize=1024

I love the new liveries, #1 looks best because it kept most of its sinister appearance, but #3 also looks great with those bright yellow accents really sticking out!
I would assume some form of tyre temp sensors.
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Old 22 Apr 2011, 09:46 (Ref:2868012)   #1273
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I love the new liveries, #1 looks best because it kept most of its sinister appearance, but #3 also looks great with those bright yellow accents really sticking out!
I prefer the variation with some extra yellow accents that David Usal of endurance-crea.com made:
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Old 22 Apr 2011, 11:43 (Ref:2868082)   #1274
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"It is easier to drive but visibility is a challenge. We won Le Mans in 2003 with the Bentley (Speed 8). The cockpit was different in that car. The A-pillars were different so there was less of a blind spot. There is a bigger blind spot in the latest design requirements and everyone (with a closed top car) will be subject to that.”
- Dindo Capello
source: http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publi...cle_6754.shtml[/QUOTE]
Well considering all coupes will have the same issue its perhaps not so much of an issue as I first made out but it's still a cause for concern.

I still think the Peugeot drivers have an advantage on this one and the Audi drivers only have one raced to learn to deal with it before Le Mans.
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Old 22 Apr 2011, 13:08 (Ref:2868129)   #1275
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That is very strange when he earlier said himself that he would only be a part of the start of the R18, but that would be it..

But of course, every one can change their minds
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