[Rules] Its been done to death, but....

[dyewat808]

Its been done to death, but I thought I would just raise an interesting point on overtaking, because of the recent race in Turkey...(apologies for length of opening post )

*cue the groans from 10thers who sigh at the rather disappointing 2010 season so far, bar the last race, which was actually not that bad*

The reason I say this is because it seems to be that the reason that there is little overtaking in F1, and that there has been no solution to fix it, is because plainly no-one in the F1 world actually knows why it isn't happening.

However, many of the far more knowledgeable people on this rather good forum blame the artificiality in the rules and regs, and I would like to add my voice to this having seen the Button-on-Hamilton move in the Turkey race.

Examine the evidence - both drivers are, we gather, told to start conserving fuel. During this time, Button decides he wants P1. He goes for the move, because he is physically able to do so. If both drivers were at full pelt, he wouldn't have been able to pull that move off, I'm sure of it. The fact that the move didn't come off as planned is irrelevant. He made a move, which is the root of the problem - its simply not happening. If you put an artificial limit in place, particularly to slow cars down, it is far easier to reach that limit and stick to it, making the cars equal and therefore uncompetitive in terms of racing - see my diagram. Its like Communism - its exactly the same principle:



The more I watch F1, and motor-racing in general, the more I am convinced it is the cars and not the tracks. Other series on the same tracks still manage good racing, so it has to be the cars. (If I remember rightly, jab and his blog agrees with me - and yes jab, you do have an audience! )

And the race in Turkey proves it. Its a new circuit - admittedly seen as one of the better ones, but still not exactly prolific and historically known for great racing. Yet we had a great race there this year IMO.

Conclusion? Cars, not tracks, need the most changing.

DISCUSS!

[Marbot]

I watched the GP2 racers from Turkey, and yes, it is easy to conclude that the cars are at fault. But there was overtaking in the F1 race, but it's one of the few circuits that allows them to do that. Tilke can rightfully be proud of that one. Shame it's in Turkey really (not that I have anything against Turks mind).

[wnut]

Neither of the "passes" McLaren or RBR were fully defended ie they were a team mate who was not expected to attack sticking it to the man in front.
In Webber's case the result was a catastrophe and I am sure that McLaren called of the dice between their drivers.

The lack of passing pretty well sums up the F1 problem.


This discussion thread should probably go to the Aero conspiracy thread.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I watched the GP2 racers from Turkey, and yes, it is easy to conclude that the cars are at fault. But there was overtaking in the F1 race, but it's one of the few circuits that allows them to do that. Tilke can rightfully be proud of that one. Shame it's in Turkey really (not that I have anything against Turks mind).

I've been to Istanbul a few times and never understood why the Turks have a GP. Everything about F1 pretty much goes against Turkish culture; hence the empty seats.

[Nicholosophy]

More dollars than sense. This always makes Bernie happy.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I've been to Istanbul a few times and never understood why the Turks have a GP. Everything about F1 pretty much goes against Turkish culture; hence the empty seats.

It will be a shame when the GP is no longer there because, i believe, the drivers genuinely like it there.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mr V

It will be a shame when the GP is no longer there because, i believe, the drivers genuinely like it there.

That's what I've heard as well, unfortunately the track's in the wrong country.

[stripedcat]

A lot of it is the "dirty air" problem in F1. I think track design could help out in that respect with tracks using banking(like in Indy) so as the cars can follow each other in the corners. That is one idea.

Another thing is the use of the sequential gearbox as Alain Prost mentioned years ago, the opportunity of drivers fluffing their gears was a great way of overtaking(especially around Monaco). I accept manual gate type gears will never come back now, simply because the sequential paddle shift has been invented, also there is a safety aspect today as well.

The main problem is the more you cut the downforce on F1 cars, the more the designers will find ways to put it back into the cars.

[Sodemo]

I watched the 1991 Monza race on the BBC classic F1 red button, and whilst there was not a vast abundance of overtaking, what I did notice was how mansell and Patrese were able to follow Senna's McLaren through the two old (flat out - the second one) Lesmo bends, you wouldn't have a cat in hells chance of doing that today because the dirty air behind a current F1 car wouldn't allow it.

The tow's that the drivers behind got also was a lot less (due to being less dirty air) so when a driver got in the tow it wasn't an "automatic pass" as it is now, drivers had to position their cars more and in a sense it was harder to overtake, but the drivers raced so much closer together, it was great to see.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

what I did notice was how mansell and Patrese were able to follow Senna's McLaren through the two old (flat out - the second one) Lesmo bends, you wouldn't have a cat in hells chance of doing that today because the dirty air behind a current F1 car wouldn't allow it.

You watched that too!

And yes, the most noticeable thing was that the cars could get right up onto each others gearbox.

And the cars were much slower, but they weren't 'slower'...if you know what I mean.

[stripedcat]

Yeah I have seen the whole of the 1991 race on Youtube. The cars could follow more closely, and they didn't get as strong of a slipstream off of the leading car - hence the race later on in the year at Spain with Mansell and Senna going wheel to wheel and playing chicken with one another on the main straight.

Although it was not easy to pass in 1991, the cars could still get much closer to the car in front, compared to today when you get to within 0.5 of a second and you are in the dirty air.

[Sodemo]

Exactly, I don't think "passing" is what people actually want to see. What I think they want to see is cars side by side into braking zones. Think how good the last 5 laps of Imola 2005 were; there was no passing, but Schumacher was all over the back of the Renault due to their tyres going off.

[Wims]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I watched the 1991 Monza race on the BBC classic F1 red button, and whilst there was not a vast abundance of overtaking, what I did notice was how mansell and Patrese were able to follow Senna's McLaren through the two old (flat out - the second one) Lesmo bends, you wouldn't have a cat in hells chance of doing that today because the dirty air behind a current F1 car wouldn't allow it.

The tow's that the drivers behind got also was a lot less (due to being less dirty air) so when a driver got in the tow it wasn't an "automatic pass" as it is now, drivers had to position their cars more and in a sense it was harder to overtake, but the drivers raced so much closer together, it was great to see.

I dont think there was less dirty air, it was just that the aerodynamics were way less sophisticated so that they werent as affected by the dirty air as they are now. The cornering speeds are way, way higher today because of the sophisticated aero. That said, Monza was never a good track for overtaking, I dont know where people have gotten that impression from. I dont think I've seen a good race there ever, at least none that springs to my mind.

But hopefully the dependance on clean air will be reduced alot next year, as they are introducing ground effect. The undertray generated downforce is not nearly as much dependant of clean air as the wings are, the undertray wont stall like a rear wing will if it reaches dirty air.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Those cars in '91, though not fully ground effect like the cars a decade before, still produced a lot of their downforce from air moving under the car. Ground effect cars produce less dirty air which is why they can get so close. IndyCars are ground effect and they can get very close.

[Wims]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Those cars in '91, though not fully ground effect like the cars a decade before, still produced a lot of their downforce from air moving under the car. Ground effect cars produce less dirty air which is why they can get so close. IndyCars are ground effect and they can get very close.

Nah, they do not produce less dirty air, i'd think they produce MORE dirty air. Remember the outrage of the dirty air from the double diffuser? Proper ground effect = double diffuser on steroids. Its just that the undertray is not dependant on clean air to work like a wing is. A wing stalls. The groundeffect does not

[Steven Humphrey]

So how come Le Mans prototypes can run closer together than F1 cars? The Audis & Peugots produce a hell of a lot of downforce but can still race close & hard (as demonstrated by Davidson & McNish on Sunday at Silverstone).

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Wims

Nah, they do not produce less dirty air, i'd think they produce MORE dirty air. Remember the outrage of the dirty air from the double diffuser? Proper ground effect = double diffuser on steroids. Its just that the undertray is not dependant on clean air to work like a wing is. A wing stalls. The groundeffect does not

If they produce more dirty air, then the car following wouldn't be able to get so close. Ground effect was originally produced using venturi tunnels, with side skirts preventing the air from escaping sideways from under the sidepods. The current F1 cars don't have venturi tunnels; what ground effect they produce comes from the diffuser at the back of the car. McLaren are using the exhaust to blow the diffuser to enhance the effect of the diffuser.

With the ground effect cars of the late '70s and early '80s clean air flow was important for ground effect to work, don't forget the car was basically a big inverted wing. Some cars ran without front wings in order to get an uninterupted flow of air under the car, sometimes cars ran with front wings, which were used to guide the airflow towards the underside of the car.

Though ground effect was banned in FI, after the 1982 season, it has remained in IndyCar racing and was developed to the extent that side skirts were eliminated. If you watch an oval race, from either the CART era or IRL, the cars use minimal front and rear wings, with the downforce being generated by the underside of the car.

[Wims]

Originally Posted by Steven Humphrey

So how come Le Mans prototypes can run closer together than F1 cars? The Audis & Peugots produce a hell of a lot of downforce but can still race close & hard (as demonstrated by Davidson & McNish on Sunday at Silverstone).

Probably because a higher % of the LMP downforce is generated by the undertray, and of course that the closed wheel design will reduce the amount of wake turbulence generated compared to open wheelers like F1.

Ground effect is a totally different concept than just a wing turned upside down. You dont need side skirts for ground effect, but that is of course optimal, thats why they used it while they were allowed. Ground effect doesnt need a steady stream of clean air, it just needs air, and the air gets compressed under the car and this compression and then release is what sucks the car down to the ground, literally. At least from what I've read. I'm no aerodynamisist. But I do know that they are allowing more ground effect elements next year in F1 for the sole reason to allow for more overtakings, so there must be at least an element of truth in what im saying.

[Sodemo]

I thought 2013 was the year they were looking at implementing ground effect?

As far as I know the only change next year is to the size of the diffuser.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I thought 2013 was the year they were looking at implementing ground effect?

As far as I know the only change next year is to the size of the diffuser.

Ground effect with GRE turbos.

[Wims]

Oh right, thats true. Got a bit excited and forgot that it wasnt before a few years time. Oh well