Un-retired numbers

[racerkeke]

Just a note for you trivia buffs. Did you notice that AJ Foyt's 14 number has been resurrected? It was retired by CART when AJ retired from CART racing, but we were told that since Champ Car is no longer CART they can un-retire numbers if they want.

I asked (insert name of Champ Car high mucky-muck here) whether this meant that they would ever un-retire the #99. To his credit he looked shocked, and assured me that 99 will remain as a retired number.

Thank you, Champ Car.

keke

[Jordi]

To be honest, I think we all agree in that Greg and AJ are two different cases...

Let the 99 alone.

[Kicking-back]

Why is number 3 not retired? It had a fatal accident with Rodriguez...

[Phoenix1]

I think CART/Champ Car series did not retire the number 3, but did retire the 99, was the fact that Gerg had been around the series for a long time and unfortunatly for Gonzalo Rodriguez he was still he rookie for Penske.

Another example being Jeff Krosnoff who died in 1996 for with just 11 CART starts.

I think the only difference between Greg, Jeff and Gonzalo was that Greg was an established driver whereas the otheres were rookies. The retirement of Greg and AJs' numbers where out of respect. i'm not sure why they unretired the number 14 although I have no issue with it. I would take offence and issue if they unretired number 99 though

[JohnSSC]

Greg Moore was a terrific young man with a huge upside, however the response from OWRS makes no sense. If Champ Car is no longer CART, then why would any number be retired under OWRS? Like him or not, but AJ is one of the all-time greats. Just because we don't like seeing him in IRL does not mean that we pull a NASCAR and re-write the history books (they now call ALL past champions "Nextel Cup Winners" - even the guys like Richard Petty who won before there was a Winston Cup).

If we are going to respect the past than let's do so appropriately. Retiring Moore's number was an honor to Greg in the aspect that his number joined that of other greats of the sport.

Open wheel racing has been around since before 1995.

[macdaddy]

Weird, as I was just thinking about AJ's number while driving home from work yesterday. I was surprised when I first learned that it was retired, and it's alright with me that it is no longer. Why not retire Mears' and Unser's favourite numbers, too?

[JohnSSC]

AJ always ran 14 - no matter what he was in: Stock Cars, Sprinters, USAC/CART/IRL open wheel and I believe his LeMans winning GT40 also sported #14.

Most drivers changed their # to coincide with the previous season's ranking in a particular series, so the Unsers, Mears, Sneva are not associated with a particular 3 like AJ was.

The closest example in the sport I can think of is King Richard's #43 - even more so than Dale Sr.'s #3.

[The Snout]

Out of interest will NASCAR retire #14 when Foyt is gone ? Will the IRL ? Point is while he is a big name in racing, does that mean every series should retire his number.

How about since he chooses to compete in the IRL that they can take the responsibility for that. I find it strange that a series that now only has 1 oval in it would feel any obligation to retire the number of a driver who has straight up said he's an oval man and doesn't go for street courses etc. In addition, why honour a driver who has nothing good to say about the series that is honouring him. If you told AJ tomorrow that OWRS were sorry and were going to retire his number again, I'd imagine that the Texan would say something along the lines of 'I don't care what they do'. Why honour someone who doesn't care if you are honouring them.

I think you can't make retiring numbers and objective thing. It's subjective to the party that is doing the retiring and it depends on many things as to whether someone has their number retired.

[macdaddy]

From Snrub...
you can't make retiring numbers an objective thing. It's subjective...

Exactly.
When was Foyt's number retired, anyway?
Up until now, the mngmnt has probably been just too timid to be rid of that rule. Perhaps they were uncertain of the public's backlash, perhaps they figured that if it ain't broke don't fix it.
I'm glad that the rule (and it was in the rulebook) has been rescinded. Not to knock AJ, as I am quite aware of his accomplishments, but I certainly don't think that he deserves any more attention than other great names do.

[Muzza]

Personally I don't think any number should be ever retired.

The sport is bigger than the drivers. And, more important, people should be remember as what they were - by their names, not as a number.

"I am not a number, I am a name."

[macdaddy]

But every sport retires numbers, no?

[macdaddy]

We Canucks are a funny bunch...
But I'd hate to see what would happen if anybody tried skating into an NHL game wearing #99.
Likewise the Grands Prix in TO, Vancouver or even Montreal.
I guess that "99" is distinctly Canadian, eh?

[Muzza]

Originally posted by macdaddy
But every sport retires numbers, no?

No - and, moreover, not in other continents. Retiring number is a (North) American tradition, that has sometimes migrated to other countries/sports.

[The Snout]

Originally posted by macdaddy
But every sport retires numbers, no?

Well in soccer for example numbers usually denote the position on the team, aka goalkeepers are usual #1 etc (even though they have squad numbers now). I mean you won't hear of England or Manchester United retiring the #7 when Beckham retires despite being a current day legend.
Same in Rugby, numbers denote position. It really depends on the sport and the culture of things, retiring numbers in any sport in Australia is quite rare, doesn't happen in V8 Supercars for example.

I'm not big on number retiring cause that's my culture, it just doesn't happen in a lot here. However in other places it's a honour and tradition.

[Superunknown]

I hate AJ, but even if he was an oval only man, he won a hell of alot more races than any other guy around, and he won them in all sorts of equipment whenever the whim struck him to hop in that POS and go race it, doesn't matter the series, the machine, the team, he'd hop in and he'd win, his record is unarguably, and quite unfortunately, the best.

[rustyfan]

Originally posted by macdaddy
But every sport retires numbers, no?

NASCAR doesn't.

[JohnSSC]

Off-topic note: I agree with NASCAR (& Muzza). A # is a number and you really shouldn't retire any of them. In NASCAR though a team "owns" particular numbers: DEI owns #3, Petty # 43, Wood Bros #21 etc.

AJ was not "just an oval man." Ask someone who saw him run at Brands Hatch where he would get his Indy Car airborne.

My point here is that IF you are going to retire #s then fine, do so to honor the accomplishement/memory of the driver associated with it.

What is objectionable to me is evaluating past drivers not on their accomplishments, but on the political correctness of their support for the Series formerly known as CART. I fell in love with racing because of guys like AJ just like many of you younger tykes fell in love with it because of guys like Moore or Senna or whoever.

We should be able to enjoy the sport - it would be like discussing F1 and saying some of Fangio's wins don't count because Alfa no longer supports F1 by fielding a team. Like him or not, AJ was a giant in his day. At least give him his due. Heck, I find him annoying these days myself but when he was in his prime as a driver - wow!

[rustyfan]

Very well said John (as always)

[JohnSSC]

Thanks rustyfan, and congrats on Rusty's win - don't watch too much NASCAR anymore but it was good to hear he found victory lane again - been too long!

Back to topic: however we feel about them, guys like AJ, Sneva, Johncock, Andretti (both) and all the Unsers (and gawd how I dislike all of them as a fan!) built this sport. We wouldn't have an OWRS or an IRL today if it weren't for them and their predecessors (Roger Ward, Hurtubise, etc.) before them.

[iucrmh]

Originally posted by JohnSSC
AJ always ran 14 - no matter what he was in: Stock Cars, Sprinters, USAC/CART/IRL open wheel and I believe his LeMans winning GT40 also sported #14.

The Le Mans winning Ford Mk IV that AJ ran at Le Mans was number 1.

[JohnSSC]

I was close! Only off by one number! Thanks for the correction iucrmh!

Now where was that other brain cell I used to have...

[BootsOntheSide]

I'm sure that if Greg was racing in teh IRL right now, they would retire the #99, and if AJ was no longer racing because he lost his life racing, tehy would keep the number retired. His involvement with IRL has to be part of it.

Retiring #99 was a lovely touch, and I believe it should remain so. it was especailyl valid because it's an unusual number to race with, and anyone using it would be accused of leeching off Greg's legacy anyway.

[Phoenix1]

Just a quickie.. AJ Foyt IV runs #14 in IRL, maybe that was a factor?

[429CJ]

And Larry Foyt drives #14 in NASCAR, they are both teams owned by A.J. Foyt himself.

[Mags]

Originally posted by Muzza
Personally I don't think any number should be ever retired.

The sport is bigger than the drivers. And, more important, people should be remember as what they were - by their names, not as a number.

"I am not a number, I am a name."

I agree with you in a way Muzza, yet I can't when it comes to Greg. He made such a huge impact on Champ Cars and the series, in such a special way, more than any driver that is still racing today..IMO.

He came up through the ladder series, was the yougest ever to win a Champ Car race, and he just had a personality and style and was such a fan favorite. He did so much and died only at 24. The series just hasn't been the same since he left us.