Monza chicanes

[BTCC frog]

In the 1950s and 1960s, the Monza track was sans chicanes. This created many classic slipstreaming races:

1953 - A three way battle between Ascari, Fangio and Farina which ended in the world champion spinning on oil at the Parabolica and Fangio coming through to victory.

1965 - Graham Hill and Jackie Stewart fought for victory in the BRMs, with the young Scot taking his maiden win.

1967 - Jim Clark charged from a lap down after a puncture to lead the race until his fuel pump broke on the final lap, leaving John Surtees to pass Jack Brabham at the final corner to win.

1969 - Jackie Stewart used a long fourth gear to get ahead of his rivals out of the final corner and win the race and the championship.

1971 - Famously, the closest finish in Formula 1 history, as a large pack of drivers fought for the lead throughout and Peter Gethin emerged victorious for the only time in his career.

These slipstreaming races were unique and could only be found at Monza (and, in the early days, at Reims). But in 1972 three chicanes were added to the track for safety reasons and Monza lost some of its uniqueness and became less special a race.

However, with the recent decision to ditch the final chicane at Catalunya significantly improving the track, I wonder if it is time to revisit the need for chicanes at Monza. Could it be possible to have a race at Monza with no chicanes? The cars would be heading into Curva Grande at very high speeds, but they are much safer in the past, and perhaps the barriers could be improved on the outside of the track, so that it would still be safe. The other two chicanes I think could more easily be removed without making the track dangerous.

It wouldn't make Monza a flat-out race because there would still be the braking points at the Parabolica and the Lesmos, and I think it would be really interesting to have a race where the cars were mostly flat out and could slipstream each other, even if it wouldn't be as extreme as it was in the 1960s, and would make Monza a particularly special and unique race.

[Richard C]

I struggle with seeing how they could make this work. Especially if it was only based upon improvements to barriers. I can imagine they could create special barriers that would decelerate a car over a longer distance (still short distance, but long compared to current barriers), but I also see something like that being particularly fragile. Meaning if it happens once, it could take a long time to rebuild (long red flag). I just don't see there being a practical solution for some type of new barriers given the speed and the existing run off footprints.

Removing the first chicane would be straight forward as the circuit still exists there. But it would create run off safety issues at Curva Grande. There would be more substantial work to undo the second chicane as it straddles the old circuit. Like before this would create run off safety issues at first Lesmo. Reworking Curva Ascari back to it's original design (Curva Vialone) would be significant. The circuit would effectively go through the current gravel trap/run off and new runoff would need to be created where seating is currently located. Even then the required run off may not fit into that footprint. Even if you didn't revert to the old layout, the need for extended run off would remain.

And in the end, if I remember correctly, hasn't it been a historic challenge to make changes due to tree protection around the circuit? Assuming no magical barriers could be created, I think any removal of chicanes would trigger reshaping of run off areas and any reshaping would require cutting down trees. I mean just look at how deep the run off is for the entry to Curva Parabolica. They would want/need something similar for Curva Grande, Lesmo and Ascari/Vialone!

I just don't see this being practical given the challenges.

Richard

[peebee2]

Behind Curva Granda is the park wall. Behind the wall is a road.

[S griffin]

Chicanes are very rarely fun and plenty of drivers and fans would be happy to see the end of most of them. Maybe they could replace the first chicane with a sweeping right then a left. The second chicane could be replaced with something similar. The Variante Ascari could easily be made into a tight double apex left hander

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Chicanes are very rarely fun and plenty of drivers and fans would be happy to see the end of most of them. Maybe they could replace the first chicane with a sweeping right then a left.

Great idea, they could knock down the historic, protected banking.

Originally Posted by S griffin

The second chicane could be replaced with something similar.

It really couldn't.

Originally Posted by S griffin

The Variante Ascari could easily be made into a tight double apex left hander

It really couldn't.




Anyway if you did all this it really wouldn't be Monza anymore.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Chicanes are very rarely fun and plenty of drivers and fans would be happy to see the end of most of them. Maybe they could replace the first chicane with a sweeping right then a left. The second chicane could be replaced with something similar. The Variante Ascari could easily be made into a tight double apex left hander

This post makes me physically ill.

[BTCC frog]

I still think they could do it. I don't think the barrier at Curva Grande would need to be moved back. Yes it would be a fast corner, but there are plenty of fast corners at Jeddah, for example, with a wall on the outside which would be just as dangerous if somebody got it wrong at high speed. If a car spun off at Curva Grande having not taken the chicane first they would still have that short trip through the gravel before hitting a barrier, which could be made as safe as possible. What would make that any more dangerous than someone spinning off at any other fast corner on the calendar (like Verstappen at Copse, for example)? As for the other two chicanes, I know the track would need to be moved to turn it into more of a single corner, but that has been done at other tracks, has it not? It would be slightly expensive but F1 could afford it easily, considering how much better it would make the Monza track. The question is about run-off and the speed of a potential crash there, but again I don't think this is any more dangerous than any other track, including the new last corner in Spain, for example.

Unless there are some specific rules which I don't know about which say that these corners are just over the line in terms of safety? Richard Casto's mention of the required run-off suggests that they might be. But they don't seem particularly dangerous to me, as a non-expert, compared to any other fast corner in Formula 1.

I can see it is not straightforward and might be difficult to make is safe, but I don't think it is impossible.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

I still think they could do it. I don't think the barrier at Curva Grande would need to be moved back. Yes it would be a fast corner, but there are plenty of fast corners at Jeddah, for example, with a wall on the outside which would be just as dangerous if somebody got it wrong at high speed. If a car spun off at Curva Grande having not taken the chicane first they would still have that short trip through the gravel before hitting a barrier, which could be made as safe as possible. What would make that any more dangerous than someone spinning off at any other fast corner on the calendar (like Verstappen at Copse, for example)? As for the other two chicanes, I know the track would need to be moved to turn it into more of a single corner, but that has been done at other tracks, has it not? It would be slightly expensive but F1 could afford it easily, considering how much better it would make the Monza track. The question is about run-off and the speed of a potential crash there, but again I don't think this is any more dangerous than any other track, including the new last corner in Spain, for example.

Unless there are some specific rules which I don't know about which say that these corners are just over the line in terms of safety? Richard Casto's mention of the required run-off suggests that they might be. But they don't seem particularly dangerous to me, as a non-expert, compared to any other fast corner in Formula 1.

I can see it is not straightforward and might be difficult to make is safe, but I don't think it is impossible.

Pretty much everything at Monza is heavily protected by law.

And it would destroy a unique circuit and atmosphere.

Not to mention the lack of practicalities of moving the track, Curva Grande would be massively quicker than Copse, where there is around double the runoff anyway.

If you haven't been there I would highly recommend trying to visit and taking the time to explore fully, including the inside of the GP loop, the club circuit, obviously as well as the banking.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Chicanes are very rarely fun and plenty of drivers and fans would be happy to see the end of most of them. Maybe they could replace the first chicane with a sweeping right then a left. The second chicane could be replaced with something similar. The Variante Ascari could easily be made into a tight double apex left hander

Eh NO

[rika]

No please keep Monza as it is.


There are lots of tracks that need changes but Monza should not be on top of that list!

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

This post makes me physically ill.

Ooh sorry for trying to add a bit of colour. Pathetic

Surprised so many people on here want to keep the chicanes. Seems to me they have got so used to them being there they seem to think they add to the circuit. To be fair they have been some fun chicanes, but I would never have put Monza's ones on that list

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Chicanes are very rarely fun and plenty of drivers and fans would be happy to see the end of most of them. Maybe they could replace the first chicane with a sweeping right then a left. The second chicane could be replaced with something similar. The Variante Ascari could easily be made into a tight double apex left hander

I'm not sure why some people are so vehemently opposed to this suggestion. Chicanes are a blight on motor racing, and watching cars driving through them (or mostly over them) is ugly. I particularly like the Ascari suggestion.

Given the incredible acceleration of F1 cars, they are travelling at pretty high speed through Curve Grande anyway. How much faster would it be if they had a longer run at it? Or maybe Curva Grande could be tightened. The same for Lesmo 1. It's all definitely worthy of some consideration by people who know better than we do (not Herman Tilke!). After all, I would have considered that the change at Barcelona was thinking the unthinkable, but someone thought it and made it happen.

[chillibowl]

I love me some Senna S style chicanes tho! To me nothing says F1 more than a quick series of of corners in alternating directions to show off the speed and lateral movements/change of direction of these race cars!

For sure tho many of the chicanes introduced by Tilke and others to slow the cars down after long straights can indeed be boring but to say they are a blight?!?

Yas Maina for example, and I could be wrong here, was in its original configuration built without chicanes and I don’t recall anyone ever thinking it was a good race track right? In fact I think they had to bring tilke in to fix that circuit by adding chicanes which did make it mildly better but still it’s not a very good track for f1 cars imo.

Anyways, I’m curious to know if everyone here even defines chicanes in the same way?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Surprised so many people on here want to keep the chicanes.

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

I'm not sure why some people are so vehemently opposed to this suggestion.

For me (and I think this is were many of the comments are coming from) is not so much about wanting to keep the chicanes as it is the impracticality of removing them for multiple reasons. Especially at Monza.

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Chicanes are a blight on motor racing, and watching cars driving through them (or mostly over them) is ugly.

That is painting with a wide brush. All chicanes are a blight on racing? Really?

This thread is F1 in a nutshell. People can't agree on what they want be it engines, cars or circuits.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

I love me some Senna S style chicanes tho! To me nothing says F1 more than a quick series of of corners in alternating directions to show off the speed and lateral movements/change of direction of these race cars!

It is a good question as to what exactly is a chicane. When is some level of "back and forth" a chicane and then on the other extreme Maggots/Becketts at Silverstone or the S curves at Suzuka? As to some being enjoyable, without putting much thought to it, the chicanes just before the start/finish at Suzuka and Spa jump out at me as being ones that I think add to the quality of the racing.

Richard

[S griffin]

For spectacular chicanes, nothing beat the old Dingle Dell at Brands. Going to the BTCC finals last year and watching from the GP loop on the Saturday, I thought it was a shame that it was no longer there. Seeing cars leap over the kerbs there must have been a sight to all those who witnessed it live.

Most chicanes though don't add much. They usually are added because people aren't imaginative enough to try and find a different solution to slowing cars down, without taking away a challenge too much

[Sodemo]

The “rules” they apply to these new F1 street venues don’t seem to apply to classic race tracks, it’s almost as if they are working from two different rule books on what is safe and acceptable.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

For spectacular chicanes, nothing beat the old Dingle Dell at Brands.

I don’t often agree with you but that is a great shout. I remember being there with F3000s and seeing them always just hope they landed pointing the right way. Awesome.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Ooh sorry for trying to add a bit of colour. Pathetic

Surprised so many people on here want to keep the chicanes. Seems to me they have got so used to them being there they seem to think they add to the circuit. To be fair they have been some fun chicanes, but I would never have put Monza's ones on that list

I'm glad that in almost a decade of us talking on this site you still don't recognise jokes.

People don't want to keep the chicanes. They want to keep racing at Monza. And removing the chicanes and turning every corner into the most dangerous corner in F1 isn't how to achieve that.

[S griffin]

Well I'm not here to discuss stupid jokes, I'm here to discuss racing

I accept the chicanes are here to stay, but they could be tweaked a little. My biggest hate is how easy it is to cut chicanes

[chillibowl]

in addition to making things more dangerous, wouldn't removing the slow speed chicanes only leave us with long straights followed by high speed corners (and the occasional high speed chicanes/complexes - the Senna S at Interlagos was the one that i was thinking about) thus making overtaking more difficult?

certainly these current configuration of cars have a much harder time following closely on higher speed circuits and if the desire to see this is an effort to encourage more slipstreaming (as the OP suggests) then the most expedient solution to achieve this/get the cars close enough to slipstream in the first place would be to add even more DRS zones or rather allow DRS to be active on more parts of the track?

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

This thread is F1 in a nutshell. People can't agree on what they want be it engines, cars or circuits.

right!

blame it on a poor calendar flow of races so far in this largely run away season adding to a lot of boredom, but i feel like we have a thread here where those who position themselves as anti DRS have somehow found a round about way to suggest a scenario where even more DRS is needed?

and speaking of round about ways...if you get rid of all the chicanes, are we not just basically talking about oval racing?

[BTCC frog]

I accept that the track might be too dangerous without the chicanes, but if the track could be made safe enough to race without them (which I do think is probably possible but don't really know).

However, if it were to be made safe enough, I definitely think that would improve the track.

It wouldn't quite be oval racing because there would still be braking zones at Parabolica and the Lesmos, but it would be quite close to it, and like the Monza races of the 1960s. I don't think the slipstream effect would be as powerful as it used to be, but still think it would have something of an effect and certainly make things interesting. Yes, cars cannot follow as closely anymore but it is better than the situation from a few years ago, and this is something that still needs addressing anyway, on a separate note. I don't think this situation would require more DRS, and would certainly prefer to see that gone as soon as possible.

The point of the suggested scrapping of the chicanes is mostly to make Monza a unique race. I think it would look really spectacular to see the cars driving almost flat-out around the lap for one race a year. It wouldn't be what I would want every race to be like, and agree that some slow chicanes (such as the one at Abu Dhabi), are good. But I think Monza would be improved without the chicanes. If, of course, it could be made safe enough.

[chillibowl]

but isnt Monza already pretty much already flat out? same with Jeddah (which takes about 75mins to complete), RB Ring kinda, Silverstone is super fast, and soon so will Vegas (blah).

heck even Spa is pretty much flat out now days and, of course this is down to my personal opinion, i would not say that being able to go faster/maintain more speed all the way around the track has made Spa a better spectacle.

but if an outright speed challenge over a set number of laps is your bag, then surely the sprint races on the fastest available tire and low fuel is the way to go...unfortunately tho sprint race quality has been mixed to poor.

to each their own of course, but from that alone i would conclude that, regardless of the track configuration, the philosophy of flat out racing has done little to improve the quality of racing (whatever that means of course).

no doubt a different story 60 years ago but today 'speed' just feeds their modern narrative of shiny fast things on Instagram and click bait headlines of so and so setting a new lap record and fastest race ever.

anyways, im ranting because im bored!

with this many races, there should be more than enough room for wide variety of challenges for the teams and drivers to overcome!

[daneferrari]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

certainly these current configuration of cars have a much harder time following closely on higher speed circuits and if the desire to see this is an effort to encourage more slipstreaming (as the OP suggests) then the most expedient solution to achieve this/get the cars close enough to slipstream in the first place would be to add even more DRS zones or rather allow DRS to be active on more parts of the track?

I think the number of DRS zones will be increased over time. It's not a bad option.

[S griffin]

Oh no, the last thing we need is more DRS zones. It has no place in F1. Quite frankly I'd rather they made minor changes to circuits, but have it so drivers have to overtake, I think we've had enough of this slam dunk DRS passing

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by S griffin

...Quite frankly I'd rather they made minor changes to circuits...

so add more braking zones and slow speed chicanes then?