[Official] Las Vegas Grand Prix 2023: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 22 of 23

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by v8supes

Imagine having spent all that money for a ticket to get 9 minutes of action....

Yeah, apparently $750.........


Complete disaster as a PR exercise.

[broadrun96]

Well it is the land of the lawsuit so....

[chillibowl]

FOM are the promoters for this event? First time promoters at that as well?

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Farcical scenes. The recent obsession with street circuits is odd. Makes sense if a country has no suitable track, but this is the USA for goodness sake. Nevertheless, this seems amateur in the extreme, and highly embarrassing given the over-hyped nature of the whole event in the first place.

I don't think it matters as my first GP was the 2005 USGP. Maybe it's just not meant to be?

Originally Posted by v8supes

Imagine having spent all that money for a ticket to get 9 minutes of action....

I don't know how many fans are really there as I suspect the majority of tickets are corporate. I know I'm not paying $600+ for a GA ticket to any race.

I would have checked out the practice session out of curiousity but it was 5:30am on the east coast and I was sleeping. Just like I'll be for the race start.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Not a great start to the weekend with the manhole problems. Really need to check them properly in future. Just feel bad for the fans who have paid all that money and have ended up seeing nothing

I would love to know the process they use to determine if any type of manhole style cover is secure enough for street circuits. It is a more subjective process such as review of the design, visual inspection, etc. Or is there an objective test in which they actively test all or some to see if a specific force level can remove them? The entire cover issue and delay to FP2 I think just sounds like...

"There is never enough time to do it right, but there is always enough time to do it over."

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I suspect the stewards could have overlooked it - but there's a good chance one (or more) of the other teams would then put in a protest and have the rules applied anyway.

Bring back Michael Masi. I hear he has a good track record of making quick decisions to keep things moving along even if they might not exactly follow the rules. We want things to flow exactly to the rules and then sometimes we want the rules to be bent/broken. Which is it?! My serious take is that they clearly need to look at a rule change to include some type of catch all exception for exceptional cases.

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Were I one of the fans who had been sheperded from the stands,I would be absolutely livid.A more pragmatic solution would have been to allow them to remain within the confines of the circuit,after all,there are no guarantees that the next session won't be curtailed pretty soon after it starts if another series of weak points comes to light.In that event I would support the right of the teams to pack up and head for the airport.

So it sounds like they have little in the way of ability to handle schedule changes or delays. Did they have a plan in place for this? Maybe they did and maybe it was to remove fans due to lack of security. If they didn't have security staff, it would have been short sighted to just let fans stay. As soon as there was some emergency and no staff to help fans, heads would roll. If serious enough that resulted in death, then potential criminal negligence level type of thing.

Semi related to this topic of lack of flexibility, I think I read somewhere that part of the agreement with Las Vegas is that between sessions (I suspect they really mean between days of the event) that traffic will be allowed to flow on the public street portion of the circuit? Meaning that the circuit is just not setup for the entire event and then torn down after the race.

As to upset fans... FOM should just hang the race promotor out to dry and push them to make it right with the fans. Oh wait...

Originally Posted by chillibowl

FOM are the promoters for this event? First time promoters at that as well?

Richard

[Lancsbreaker]

Yes I think the roads had to be open to public traffic from 4am local. So immediately after the much delayed FP2. Glad to see Alfas playing card livery and gold Cloverleaf have helped Bottas make his mark....

[fergus_r]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

FOM are the promoters for this event? First time promoters at that as well?

Liberty Media-owned FOM, that is. I'd like to think FOM pre-2017 takeover would have handled this calamity far better.

The calamity being, for me, the general response and attitude towards the paying crowd. In Vegas of all places! They say it's the city that never sleeps, with part of the 'appeal' of the event being these odd running hours late into the night/morning...then they kick everybody out by 1:30am!

The irony is not lost on me, and it proves exactly why these events need real, serious motorsport governing bodies/organisers in control.

Unfortunately, the reality is, Liberty are far too powerful to care, and the casual F1 fan will forget by the next event. And if they haven't forgotten, they'll just brush it off and continue to add to the TV audience figures, continue to buy tickets and spend money at GPs, etc. Like how people complain about the ludicurous pricing...while entering their card details as they book tickets for their next event.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I would love to know the process they use to determine if any type of manhole style cover is secure enough for street circuits. It is a more subjective process such as review of the design, visual inspection, etc. Or is there an objective test in which they actively test all or some to see if a specific force level can remove them? The entire cover issue and delay to FP2 I think just sounds like...

"There is never enough time to do it right, but there is always enough time to do it over."

and additional thought to add to your question...

one would think that any track/venue/playing surface is tested by running a few practice type events there first in an attempt to identify and work out any potential problems.

my impression was this did not happen here? cant close down the strip for a trial run right?

of course not much is generating F1 types of downforce so perhaps this was something that would not have been realized until the main event showed up but still, regardless how well built something is, surely problems crop up the first time it is used.

that they were not ready or adequately staffed to handle potential and likely problems should also be of concern. manhole covers have been problems before at both new and exiting street circuits before. this was a predictable issue right?

[1969MGCGTdriver]

1. Not surprised Toto was the naysayer on the Sainz situation with regards to the penalties. They are in a dog fight with Ferrari for 2nd in the Constructors. Why would he help a competitor? Oh that's right, for the good of the sport, but he's not really about that.

2. I guess the old adage about "there's no such thing as bad press" is true. The track situation had a couple minute long segment on Good Morning America this morning. For the non-Americans, that's ABC's national morning news (really lifestyle, not news) show. So even the soccer mom's and other who have never heard of F1 are getting exposed to F1 this morning. Yay, more casual fans to pile on top of the DTS fans. Liberty is getting their money's worth on this one.

[JHamilton]

That appears to be a sanitary sewer cleanout and not a storm water manhole, fwiw. If you pour something down the hole to try to fill it up, you're gonna need more than a couple of bags of ready mix. Just weld the damn things up.

[TCT]

Reminded me of the WSPC race at Montreal in 1990


The quality is not great, but still...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74GxRTMVI3o
Watch from 09:35 onwards



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk33UybFa6s


Or this

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/video...-crash/443959/


http://www.hoppsan.org/jamesb/crash1.jpg

http://www.hoppsan.org/jamesb/crash3.jpg

[midgetman]

Really doesn't matter what it was. That's a ***k up that shouldn't have happened. That it wrecked a car and a driver's whole weekend hopefully leaves someone open to massive litigation.

If Felipe can sue, what can Ferrari do here? Will it impact their budget cap? Not acceptable in a world class event I'm afraid.

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[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Really doesn't matter what it was. That's a ***k up that shouldn't have happened. That it wrecked a car and a driver's whole weekend hopefully leaves someone open to massive litigation.
If Felipe can sue, what can Ferrari do here? Will it impact their budget cap? Not acceptable in a world class event I'm afraid.

+ 1.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Really doesn't matter what it was. That's a ***k up that shouldn't have happened. That it wrecked a car and a driver's whole weekend hopefully leaves someone open to massive litigation.

If Felipe can sue, what can Ferrari do here? Will it impact their budget cap? Not acceptable in a world class event I'm afraid.

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

Cause it has NEVER happened before ever

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Stewards have rejected an appeal from Ferrari to allow them to use an extra engine, given the exceptional circumstances.

So no allowance for force majeure. Amazing.

[Gerard C]

Anything can happen in Vegas! The translation from italian to english of "casino" being "mess" everything will be amazing.

[broadrun96]

Well we do one thing well here, over-react to issues and I'm betting ANY cover on the racing surface and 4 blocks around it will be impossible to remove and require the entire street to be removed to repair in the future now

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

That appears to be a sanitary sewer cleanout and not a storm water manhole, fwiw. If you pour something down the hole to try to fill it up, you're gonna need more than a couple of bags of ready mix. Just weld the damn things up.

Yeah, it looked like it was a valve box ring that would have been inset into concrete. Something like this...

https://www.usfoundry.com/usfoundry-...talog/valuebox

And I think it was inset and was pulled out. Once out, it was hit by Carlos. I have to wonder how it was pulled out. I would tend to think it is less about the force of the underbody wing as maybe something caught a lip and pulled it up and out.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

So no allowance for force majeure. Amazing.

I tend to think there should be something in the rules to allow for special situations, but I saw a good comment posted elsewhere in that once you create that allowance, where does it stop. So lets say this is a clear example of situation in which an allowance should be made. But what if there is a curb that teams feel is too high and a driver hits it. Or a rain race and water pulls mud across a track and someone crashes due to the slick mud. Where is the cut off line? It creates a situation in which team principles will start to argue to help on things that are the team's fault.

But I still think they should have wording in the rule that do allow them to make exceptions. I think someone already pointed this out, but if all the teams agreed, it could have been done, but that it was said Mercedes said "no" or had let race officials know they would say "no".

As to people missing FP2. This was pretty funny. People riding up/down a pedestrian bridge escalator because you could see the circuit when going up/down. They should have had a contingency plan to ensure enough staff if there were a schedule change for the sessions.

https://www.reddit.com/r/formuladank...icket_gets_me/

Richard

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Cause it has NEVER happened before ever

Yes it has, and that's why it shouldn't happen again. Shouldn't we learn from our mistakes, rather than make them again on the basis that "it happened before so it's OK"?

HANS devices, Halos, feet behind the front axle, the whole of racing driver safety - all developed "cause it happened before and we don't want it to happen again."




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[midgetman]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Well we do one thing well here, over-react to issues and I'm betting ANY cover on the racing surface and 4 blocks around it will be impossible to remove and require the entire street to be removed to repair in the future now

Good.

Maybe the Vegas organisers will take their responsibilities a bit more seriously in future.

I hope they get hit with a massive fine and have to compensate the teams.

It all happens because they try to short cut the rules. Whatever happened to "must organise an international race meeting before a GP"?



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[Richard C]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Yes it has, and that's why it shouldn't happen again. Shouldn't we learn from our mistakes, rather than make them again on the basis that "it happened before so it's OK"?

This goes back to my earlier comments about... what is the criteria that is used to address in-street access ports (manholes, etc.) are safe and will not be an issue for the duration of the event. And what testing procedures (if any) are in place to ensure what they do actually works? I have zero idea what they do, but I am really curious. FIA/FOM needs to do a root cause analysis on this and enact some changes. As I mention in a post above, I suspect part of that port was sitting proud of the track surface. Just enough that something like a skid block might catch it and pop it out of the concrete it was set into. If there were a test that verified that each port was below track surface (and maybe there is) then maybe this could have been avoided.

Another thing, I read a post on Reddit about a guy who lives in Las Vegas and is a diehard F1 fan. He could afford to buy Thursday tickets, but not for Friday/Saturday due to high prices. I feel bad for that guy, but it also brings out a point that is you charge super premium amounts, that you as the promotor must really deliver!

Richard

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Really doesn't matter what it was. That's a ***k up that shouldn't have happened. That it wrecked a car and a driver's whole weekend hopefully leaves someone open to massive litigation.

If Felipe can sue, what can Ferrari do here? Will it impact their budget cap? Not acceptable in a world class event I'm afraid.

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Regarding the repair, which is what I was referring to, it makes a pretty big difference. There is a photo floating around of two guys pouring sack concrete down the cleanout. Let's not turn this into a city-wide issue and float turds onto the track, we've already got Haas out there.

I have seen more photos that show the covers were grouted in. As we all know now, that doesn't work. They welded them all during the "break".

I completely agree that the penalty is asinine but I'm not surprised either. I'm sure Ferrari will sue someone, it will take years to sort out, and the lawyers get the money.

[fergus_r]

Originally Posted by midgetman

It all happens because they try to short cut the rules. Whatever happened to "must organise an international race meeting before a GP"?



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That rule doesn't exist anymore but wouldn't have been necessary this weekend anyway, given Liberty/FOM ARE the event organisers (sadly)!

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Good.

Maybe the Vegas organisers will take their responsibilities a bit more seriously in future.

I hope they get hit with a massive fine and have to compensate the teams.

It all happens because they try to short cut the rules. Whatever happened to "must organise an international race meeting before a GP"?



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MM is fired up! Don't worry, this event and Miami only have a couple years in them. Once the hype wears off and actual race fans still can't afford to go, they'll turn these dates over to the middle-east as Allah intended.

[Richard C]

I want to clarify something I said earlier. I thought the entire ring was pulled out of the concrete. It is clear from photos I just looked at, that the ring was not pulled out, but it was not. It was just the lid/cover.

Richard