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Old 5 Jan 2012, 04:38 (Ref:3007523)   #126
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I think its a valid point about Hamilton, he doesn't look like he could win another championship any time soon even if McLaren was the dominant car.
He can but he needs to change his attitude, which he seemed to be doing towards the end of last season. If he can keep it up he'll win it again.
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Old 5 Jan 2012, 05:22 (Ref:3007525)   #127
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Here's the Herbert crash in case you haven't seen it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlSo9MWZmq8

It's hard to say if that crash effected his driving ability at all. Only he Herbert would know. Has he ever said he wasn't able to drive as fast since then?

There's every chance it didn't effect him at all and he never was WDC material. He wasn't exactly blowing anyone away in F3000 in 88. He never struck me as anyone beyond average, but I wasn't watching racing in the 80s when he was being touted as the next big thing. Who did he beat in the British F3 in 87?
He was no Jim Clark but I suspect he was a "tad" above "average". So many very good drivers get downgraded unfairly just because they have been beaten by a very good teammate. Oddly enough there are others (Nigel Mansell) who don't despite being beaten more often than not by teammates.
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Old 5 Jan 2012, 13:43 (Ref:3007690)   #128
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He can but he needs to change his attitude, which he seemed to be doing towards the end of last season. If he can keep it up he'll win it again.
I can't see it happening whilst Button is his team-mate, couple of years when Button has moved on? Maybe but at the moment Button seems to have the more brains of the two and that will matter even more if it came down to a championship battle.
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Old 5 Jan 2012, 13:52 (Ref:3007693)   #129
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I wouldnt be so sure. Button definitely kept things together much better in the 2nd half of 2011 however I think Hamilton will come back a much more focused driver in 2012.

When push comes to shove, Hamilton is the quicker driver.
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Old 5 Jan 2012, 13:54 (Ref:3007695)   #130
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I think it's far too early to judge Hamilton's career. If he sticks it out with McLaren he will have many more opportunities to win - the cycle of success of the major teams makes it inevitable that McLaren will have a dominant car at some point while he's still around.

And he's several years younger than Button.
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Old 5 Jan 2012, 14:24 (Ref:3007706)   #131
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Storm Front approaching ...
Now, why would you say that?
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Old 5 Jan 2012, 14:42 (Ref:3007711)   #132
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beau1 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridbeau1 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridbeau1 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by D.R.T. View Post

When push comes to shove, Hamilton is the quicker driver.
Doesn't matter that much if he can't finish the races or makes mistakes that cost him places.

We're talking about the driver who should have won two championships already and only won in 2008 due to a stroke of luck.

At the end of the day, Button is the one who makes the least mistakes, most consistant and thats what wins championships rather than just pure speed and also has the experience of winning a championship fairly comfortably even if he did take his time about it.

Hamilton will have plenty of opportunities but at the present time, I can't see him actually getting a championship unless McLaren is dominant and then he still has to beat his team-mate who is arguably better than him. The evidence is stacking up against him really, Alonso was still consistantly impressive in his wilderness years as was Schumacher but so far all Hamilton has shown is that whilst he will pick up a couple of race wins a year he appears to be neither consistant enough or able to take the car beyond its capabilities to try and win the championship in a non dominant car.

Last edited by beau1; 5 Jan 2012 at 14:49.
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Old 5 Jan 2012, 15:37 (Ref:3007728)   #133
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Niki Lauda's career certainly didn't decline over a long period (although he found it tough in 1984, but against Prost, why wouldn't you? and in 1985, he seemed notably slower relative to Alain at a time where he was coming into his own), but when watching season reviews in the time of his career, it's striking just how often he was up front. He feasibly could have won a few more in the 70s had the car been up to it and had near-disaster not intervened in '76.

When reviewing the best drivers ever, his name often gets overlooked, as he doesn't seem to crop up in many people's top lists, but he achieved so much.

Someone mentioned Jarno Trulli fairly early on. He's a curious case. Actually, throughout most his pre-Renault F1 career, he looked one of those good but not-that-good types, like Fisichella. But he seemed to really step up when handed a Renault. Okay, I know it was early in Alonso's F1 career, but Trulli was often ahead. Just what happened? I hear he fell out with Flavio, but how did that impact on his form (before being dropped)? Did he just let his head drop or was he hampered on strategy, or what? It's an odd one, because he's been treading water for a while now.
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Old 5 Jan 2012, 15:40 (Ref:3007731)   #134
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Originally Posted by beau1 View Post
We're talking about the driver who should have won two championships already and only won in 2008 due to a stroke of luck.
That looks like a contradiction in terms. If he should have won two championship, are you referring to two other than 2008, or are you saying he should have won 2008 easier than he did and the other one is presumably 2007? To say he should have won 2007 is to miss the point that his season was startling and couldn't have got much better. Unlike many seasons where people somewhat lazily put the failure to seal a championship down to final race woes, his 2007 was so good that it's easier to pinpoint the moments where it went wrong. One was definitely China, where it made zero sense to leave him out rather than pitting him.
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Old 5 Jan 2012, 18:06 (Ref:3007769)   #135
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That looks like a contradiction in terms. If he should have won two championship, are you referring to two other than 2008, or are you saying he should have won 2008 easier than he did and the other one is presumably 2007? To say he should have won 2007 is to miss the point that his season was startling and couldn't have got much better. Unlike many seasons where people somewhat lazily put the failure to seal a championship down to final race woes, his 2007 was so good that it's easier to pinpoint the moments where it went wrong. One was definitely China, where it made zero sense to leave him out rather than pitting him.
I'm saying the second option, that he should have won 2008 easier (the same goes for Massa mind you, both were as bad as each other) but by the end it came down to a last corner desparate situation.

Regardless how how impressive his debut season was, he should have won the championship as he had an 18 point advantage going into the last two races, it was practically his already. He still has these problems of focus when the pressure is on him, which is why I think he'd struggle if it came down to a straight fight for the championship. He's nearly blown it twice already and still makes the same mistakes.
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Old 5 Jan 2012, 18:19 (Ref:3007778)   #136
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Someone mentioned Jarno Trulli fairly early on. He's a curious case. Actually, throughout most his pre-Renault F1 career, he looked one of those good but not-that-good types, like Fisichella. But he seemed to really step up when handed a Renault. Okay, I know it was early in Alonso's F1 career, but Trulli was often ahead. Just what happened? I hear he fell out with Flavio, but how did that impact on his form (before being dropped)? Did he just let his head drop or was he hampered on strategy, or what? It's an odd one, because he's been treading water for a while now.
I always thought he was decent with Toyota right up until his last year certainly not championship material mind you but he could have been a decent number 2 in the Barrichello standard. He always seemed to lose focus in the second half of seasons though, almost as if he got bored or couldn't wait for the season to end.

Thought he was impressive against Timo Glock, who seems to be highly regarded now. His head did seem to go down though when Toyota ceased and I'm not really surprised.
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Old 5 Jan 2012, 18:31 (Ref:3007783)   #137
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Emerson Fittipaldi - Won the driver's championship in 1972 (convincingly), got shafted by Chapman in 73 (Ronnie Peterson and some strange reliability issues), won it again in 1974 (against the odds) and then let emotion get the better of him in 1976 when the Copersucar "opportunity" came along. Could have stayed with McLaren and taken another title in 76. However, there's life beyond F1, so winning the Indy 500 twice and the CART championship is not a bad outcome. The results reflect the character of the man. Excellent fellow!
Incidentally, Fittipaldi F1 gave a certain Adrian Newey his first job in F1, so you can thank him for that as well!
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 04:49 (Ref:3008497)   #138
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Yeah I personally wouldn't regret adding an Indy 500 and Indycar titles to my 2 F1 titles, rather than just becoming a 3 time F1 champion, if I were Fittipaldi. Nothing wrong with those!

Unbelievable to think he was still racing at the front of Indycars into the 90s (till 1996), and still winning every year till his final season. That's 26 years of F1 to Indycar retirement. If he'd stayed in F1 that long he'd have raced from the likes of Jack Brabham, Graham Hill, Jackie Stewart, would have out-lasted the greats of Piquet, Senna, Prost, Mansell and then competed against Schumacher and Damon Hill. Pretty incredible. He wasn't as fast in the 90s as he was in the 70s, though - well past his prime speed.
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Old 8 Jan 2012, 09:49 (Ref:3008886)   #139
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D.R.T. should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridD.R.T. should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Doesn't matter that much if he can't finish the races or makes mistakes that cost him places.
Hence the comment about needing to be able maintain focus in 2012.

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then he still has to beat his team-mate who is arguably better than him. The evidence is stacking up against him really, Alonso was still consistantly impressive in his wilderness years as was Schumacher but so far all Hamilton has shown is that whilst he will pick up a couple of race wins a year he appears to be neither consistant enough or able to take the car beyond its capabilities to try and win the championship in a non dominant car.
He beat Button on 2010 and then Button beat him in 2011, year to year it is competitive so I wouldnt be putting one in front of the other for 2012 at this point.

What evidence? What did Alonso do in wininng a few races in 2008 that Hamilton hasnt done in the McLaren when it wasn't the form car?

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Old 8 Jan 2012, 13:58 (Ref:3008964)   #140
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What evidence? What did Alonso do in wininng a few races in 2008 that Hamilton hasnt done in the McLaren when it wasn't the form car?
I think he may be inferring that Alonso's Renault wasn't a 'form' car as you put it, compared to last years McLaren.

But then to win a race in any car these days, it must be delivering the pace on the given day surely, as it was in Singapore (er herm..) Fuji in 2008?
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