Nick, Kimi, and Sauber

[senna12]

I have been reading some interesting articles regarding Sauber and their future.
They don't expect to be running Ferrari engines next year, they want a full works deal, to take it to the next level. Where might this factory motor come from?

We've been speculating a lot lately about Nick in a McLaren, or Kimi in a Ferrari, but to hear Peter Sauber talk, he has no intention of letting either of them go, he would prefer to use these excellent young drivers to attract a couple of major sponsors to go with Credit Suisse, and the above mentioned engines.

Not much has been said on the forum about Sauber and their future.
I assumed they would continue with the Ferrari program in some way, perhaps using Kimi for leverage. But it appears that Peter Sauber can more clearly see the big picture, and what is required to be successful in F1. Would it be easier for him to secure a works engine then say, Minardi?

So do you think Sauber can take it to the next level with a works motor? Imagine the BMW powerplant in a Sauber, with Kimi and Nick driving!! We should rule nothing out, that's what makes speculating so much fun...

[Quino]

Rumours have it Sauber is close to landing a VW-deal (although they say they are not going to enter) and make it to Sauber-Bugatti with a little badgeengineering-thingy. With a W10 for all I know

Nick is -of course- linked to McLaren, although it's still surpising that a guy with supposed McLaren-links is driving a Sauber-Ferrari in the first place. Both Mika and Dave's contracts are up for renewal at the end of this season. Jordan already denied their interests in DC but he will be hot property when he continues this form. If he does he will probably stay at McLaren. Mika has retirement written all over him at the moment, so we are watching that one closely. If he does, we shouldn't forget about Alex Wurz either he is -in my book- a proven quicky and it helps when Flavio is not around.

Kimi will probably stay at Sauber. Peter Sauber will demand truckloads of money for this kid which are only payable by the topteams. Since Williams is booked and Ferrari is better of sticking to MS and RB or pull a surpise-move to take on Fisichella after all, it will be Sauber for the kid. He has a three year contract.

[botsquad]

getting a competitive engine package is the only way
they are going to keep kimi.

im sure he just loved moving over for tgf in austria.

[Quino]

The fact that MS' overtaking manouvre on Kimi didn't end in the graveltrap doenst mean Kimi just rolled over.
MS had the momentum and the inside through the corner, Kimi lost balance while riding the kerbs and the grass at the exit of the previous corner. So he was lost. Pure and simple, and CLEAN!

[Dino IV]

"MS on JPM was not an overtaking manouevre" you wrote in another thread.
And now "MS on Kimi was actually an overtaking manouevre".

What stuff are you on? Fairytale extra strong?

Jean probably didn't have to walk to the Sauber pitstand to arrange this with his close friend. He probably just simply waved with his hand and as Peter nodded he talked in his mic ... This was a pass-by-please on a golden platter.

[botsquad]

Originally posted by Quino
Pure and simple, and CLEAN!

yea..so clean...lol.

so fffing clean...and for a spot on the podium.

so ffing clean kimi practically reached out and wiped
tgf's butt as he pulled over.

[Ed G]

Speaking of clean.... TGF had less trouble getting around both Kimi and Oliver than he did his own teammate. I wonder if he was thinking about future teammates as he passed them by.

[Valve Bounce]

Common guys - this is a good thread, so let's not let it degenerate into another anti TGF tirade.
Senna12, somehow with last year's Ferrari engine, Peter Sauber has already lifted his team to the next level with a great chassis, 2 very good drivers, and with an obviously great support and management team. Something that Jaguar with more money and a works engine, and a team of winners as management cannot do. Peter has gone on record that his two drivers will stay with the team until the end of their contracts. So the only thing left is a factory engine. Is he going for a NEW supplier, or is he going for one of the established engine suppliers? This is the question. Somehow, I don't think he is going to take a chance with a VW engineered new engine that will see his team in the wilderness for two engine development years.
The logical step would be to go for one of the current factory engines, like Benz or BMW or Ford, and if they refuse, then take a chance on Renault or Toyota. Honda would be stretching their resources to provide a third team. In view of certain happenings in last week's race, I can't see Ferrari even contemplating the idea of letting anyone else have an engine as good as their own drivers'.

[Ed G]

And what happenings might those have been?

[Quino]

You better take a closer look at what exactly happened with the Kimi-situation and see the diffrence with the JPM-situation. I cannot believe you missed that one.

There is a diffrence between being all over your opponent and actualy place an overtaking attempt. The simple fact that MS forced JPM to defend the inside line doesn't mean he had an overtakingmanouvre round the outside in mind. Besides, before he could even think of making an attempt, it was all over.

With Kimi he was on the inside line and no Kimi didn't make it very difficult for him. But I see that we now hold MS responsible for that also.

The guy doesn't have to prove he can overtake, even if it requires a fight, now does he?

Apperantly he does and we all refused to watch anything considered even vaguely linked to F1 since Spa 1991. Only that could explain some of the rubbish people put on this board.

[hornytoad]

today's latest is that the rumored deal is a joint venture b/w sauber and audi plated with the bugatti name.

[botsquad]

Originally posted by Ed G
And what happenings might those have been?

just perhaps the reference is to the fact that the wdc, driving the latest and greatest, was behind a rookie, driving the previous release.

and said rookie was given instructions to not to defend P3

[senna12]

I think Audi is a real possibility, after their LeMans success, and also due to the presence of Merc and BMW already.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Ed G
And what happenings might those have been?

I don't want to get into a slanging match here or even start one. So let's just look at the realities: Ferrari are totally focussed on winning a WDC in their own team. They will do whatever is necessary to achieve that. That is their stated philosophy. So, I don't think that they will supply factory engines to anyone, let alone Peter Sauber who can challenge them in a race.

As for the Audi deal, I know nothing about Audi, but do they have a V10 on a dyno yet? It takes two years at least to develop an F1 engine, and by then Peter's options on his two top quality drivers would run out. Then again, maybe you guys know something that I don't.

[EERO]

I don't believe the VW story at all. There have been rumors about the Bugatti badging of Prost or Sauber for ages, but I just don't see it happening.

What are the odds that Sauber reforges a link wih Mercedes and that Heidfeld is somehow a part of the deal.
I think that we will eventually have to see a situation where the engine suppliers provide full spec engines to two teams as Honda currently does.

The only majors left are the VW group and General Motors. Both have been clear that they want no part of F1.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by EERO

I think that we will eventually have to see a situation where the engine suppliers provide full spec engines to two teams as Honda currently does.

If Ferrari are forced to supply another team, we would see the re-emergence of Maserati, and then the team orders situation would become ridiculous.

EERO, when you said reforge links with Mercedes, did Peter Sauber have something to do with Mercedes before? I can't remember this, but then I have never been that much interested in the Saubers.

[DNQ]

Let's take a look at the engines that could theoretically be in the back of a Sauber in 2002 or 2003.

Ferrari - Possibly the most likely option. They've had Ferrari motors for years now.
Mercedes - They don't supply any teams apart from McLaren. Sauber-Chysler?
Asiatech - Nope, it's worse than the Ferrari
Honda - Already supplying two teams
Peugeot - Have said they won't come back
Volkswagen - Have stated they have no interest in such a venture
Audi - Possible. Maybe they'll pull out of the ALMS to pay for it?
Ford - Powers Jaguar, both of which are struggling. Little chance of powering Sauber.
Subaru - Why Not? They made an F1 motor in the 1980's for Coloni
BMW - Maybe they could supply old motors from 2000

What do you think?

[Valve Bounce]

DNQ, you forgot Renault, which I think is a definite possibility. Isn't AUDI and VW the same company? I can't see Ferrari agreeing to supply factory engines to another team, except maybe to "Maserati" if they can buy out Prost.

[Minardi fan]

I believe Sauber's sports cars were/are powered by Mercedes engines.

[Marshal]

Sauber built and ran the works Mercedes Groups C sportscars in the late 80s and early 90s, and their jump to F1 was funded by Mercedes, when in '93 and '94 the ran with works Mercedes power.

[Valve Bounce]

OK, Sauber Mercedes would be a great addition to the front of the Quals grid.

[Quino]

DNQ> BMW-2000 won't work either. The whole point of ditching Ferrari is to not be held back by old spec engines any longer.

Peter Sauber seems pretty confident about a worksdeal which will lead to the end of his Ferrari relationship. Since he privatly drives a Jag the guy probably has landed a works Cosworth deal, which leaves Walkinshaw in the dust.

[Liz]

I have heard some pitlane gossip that says a Renault deal that would swap one of the Sauber guys for Button the Unwanted. But I have also heard that rumour re Minardi, so perhaps it is just the latest in a long string of rumours.

Personally I'd take a works over a customer engine of the Ferrari persuasion simply so as not to be beholden to Ferrari for Offers I Could Not Refuse.

But that's just me.