Code 60 for UK

[deley]

MSA proposed regulation change to introduce Code 60 in the UK from Jan '17 has been published for consultation.

[Bodysnatcher]

hallelujah!

[The Fat Clerk]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

hallelujah!

Why?

It just means you'll get cars trundling round with no gaps, making Marshals work harder and more dangerous, with a Safety Car you know when you have them all behind you and how big the gap is, this can be radioed to those dealing with the incident.

With a Safety Car the Race Leaders know when the lights 'Go Off' to get ready to restart.

Please discuss...................................

[Bodysnatcher]

I've worked live tracks with major incidents
under Code 60
under Full Course Yellow
under Safety Car
and
under local Double Waved Yellow.
{and that's my order of preference, although at some circuits DWY can beat SC when it comes to driver compliance}

When a local yellow just won't do, Code 60 for marshal maximum safety would be my choice. Every time.

It's 37.2823 mph (thanks Dave Patrick), slower than a lot of traffic on a 30mph roads are. How often do we walk with our backs to normal roadside traffic?

Gaps are irrelevant at those speeds. What a marshal needs is safe controlled working conditions - something lacking on many occasions when a safety car is deployed.
How often do we see
cars not catching up to the main group in front (quite often)
cars still running at race pace to catch up to the cars in front (far too often).

Code 60 implementation means that the whole field has control imposed within a matter of seconds. Likewise when the incident is cleared - all points green flag, racing recommences everywhere (and if drivers have to watch for a green, it means they're looking at the flag points)

Deploying a safety car takes time, especially for those less than life threatening incidents, usually control waiting until the leader approaches, but then again, deployment will miss the leader all too often. Then once the incident is clear, the pack may have to be reshuffled to play find the leader and there tends to be one more lap to be sure (unless the chequer is close).

For me this year has been frustrating - due to the Bianchi modifications. We could clear single seaters from Paddock bend gravel in 3 to 5 minutes under the old way of local DWY - now we have to wait for a SC deployment, wait for the majority of the field to get lined up behind it - then control lets the JCB loose. 1 or 2 laps of SC to get rid of the visitors, then one more lap to be safe - easily 4 laps of SC - in all about 10 minutes on Brands Indy - and as for crash prone series that will only use SC.. what a waste of track time.

[deley]

The gaps are all fixed, cars circulating at about 40mph, no one at racing speed trying to catch up with the train, no need to catch leader or wave cars past SC, no need to waste laps while train forms behind SC, etc, etc

So actually safer than current SC

Added bonus for drivers is no one loses out on gaps they might have created during the race so fairer racing

[Bodysnatcher]

from years ago
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...highlight=code

[SWCRacing]

It's a "No Thanks" from me, both as a driver and an official.

The MSA will be getting my comments....

[The Fat Clerk]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

It's a "No Thanks" from me, both as a driver and an official.

The MSA will be getting my comments....

Exactly the same from me: as a Driver & a Clerk.

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Exactly the same from me: as a Driver & a Clerk.

so you ask for a discussion on the subject and then tell us that you'll be saying no.

Why?

[Terrible-Tones]

Never seen a "real" code 60, but seen a FCY during BlancPain I think it was (or possibly WEC - not sure). Essentially the pit limiters (or similar) are used to control the speed of the car. Everything dropped to pit limit speed in an instant (more or less). Seemed to work very well, and I would have no issues at going track side whilst this was happening.

However, for MSA Club racing, I think it isn't quite so simple. There are no electronics to limit speed. A lot of club cars, Sports and Single Seaters mainly, do not even have speedometers, so how is an individual driver going to know his exact speed? Further, even a lot of saloon/hatches have poor speedos (ours is all over the show) or have them disconnected. Before you ask how about pit speed then, well the tendency (mostly) in short club racing is to enter the pits at a speed you know to be well below pit speed, and often you only enter in a train of cars anyway at the end.

So I see that this is going to be difficult to both police, and for drivers to adhere to accurately.

To my mind the most dangerous bit about a SC is stuff pitting under SC then sprinting around the track to catch up with the SC train again. For me one of the answers would be to have a pit lane closer (unless an emergency such as fuel or mech failure) and if something comes in, hold it until end of SC period - harsh but there you are.

So though I see the plus sides of a Code 60, enforcement, policing and accuracy may be an issue?

[Coach Ep]

Maybe you should see it live with your own eyes before becoming convinced it's the far superior procedure! Not that it's perfect but it easily beats a SC 9 out of 10 times.

And it's not only safer for marshals/recovery workers/etc. to work on most incidents, it also lowers the risk of another caution right after the restart as the field is less bunched up (defying the old "yellows bread yellows" routine).

At the end of the day, there's still the option of deploying the SC if/when judged necessary - preferably when the race is already under Code 60 to prevent cars from chasing and catching back up to the pack.

Good move by the MSA - it was about time. I wonder how much longer the various sanctioning bodies over here in the US will take to make a similar move? 5, 10, 15 years perhaps?

[SWCRacing]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Maybe you should see it live with your own eyes before becoming convinced it's the far superior procedure! Not that it's perfect but it easily beats a SC 9 out of 10 times.

I have, as a competitor, on one of the best circuits in the world. It ONLY works on circuits where there are light panels. The majority of UK circuits do not have light panels.

Nor do they have timing loops every 100m to enable the timekeepers to accurately judge the speed of a competitor at ANY point on the circuit. Without this, there is absolutely NO proof of what speed a car is doing at any given point on the track. And a Marshal's opinion that a competitor is going faster that a given speed isn't of any use in determining the actual speed

And as mentioned in other posts, most cars on circuits do not have speedometers. And there isn't the time in the event's programme to lead all the competitors around behind a course car so they can see what revs equate to 60kph

If drivers (and I include an unfortunately large number of professionals in this, not just clubbies) actually understood the safety car procedures and FOLLOWED them, there would be no need for this flag anywhere... I have only ever seen one driver get the restart procedure right after a safety car when I've been driving the car....

And seeing as the FIA have revised appendix H of the ISC to include the use of Full Course Yellows, why does any race run under the FIA regulations need another flag?

My opinions, I know, but I have a race licence, an officials licence, and I drive Safety Cars...

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

I have, as a competitor, on one of the best circuits in the world. It ONLY works on circuits where there are light panels. The majority of UK circuits do not have light panels.

Nor do they have timing loops every 100m to enable the timekeepers to accurately judge the speed of a competitor at ANY point on the circuit. Without this, there is absolutely NO proof of what speed a car is doing at any given point on the track. And a Marshal's opinion that a competitor is going faster that a given speed isn't of any use in determining the actual speed

And as mentioned in other posts, most cars on circuits do not have speedometers. And there isn't the time in the event's programme to lead all the competitors around behind a course car so they can see what revs equate to 60kph

If drivers (and I include an unfortunately large number of professionals in this, not just clubbies) actually understood the safety car procedures and FOLLOWED them, there would be no need for this flag anywhere... I have only ever seen one driver get the restart procedure right after a safety car when I've been driving the car....

And seeing as the FIA have revised appendix H of the ISC to include the use of Full Course Yellows, why does any race run under the FIA regulations need another flag?

My opinions, I know, but I have a race licence, an officials licence, and I drive Safety Cars...

Yes, I have to agree with above. I really, I mean really, like the idea, but I see it as difficult to police a the moment. Though, as with all changes, if it happens, it will improve in the course of time.

I agree no time to run everything behind SC to gauge Code 60 Speed - utter waste of time. Anyhow - if you take our Rev counter - it is as bad as the speedo, both are mechanically driven, and badly worn - so speedo dis-connected, rev counter for rough gauging only. Probably get car to approx 60 by ear, but it would be plus minus 10mph.

Phone based GPS remarkably poor - signal not good sometimes, and phone GPS doesn't update fast enough in the main.

But the biggest problem here is as SWCRacing says is judgement. As a marshal you can only report the facts. Unfortunately you can never accurately say how fast a driver is going at a given point - on post I have heard wildly differing perceptions from people. Once on the exit of Gerrards at Mallory I asked the team how fast the RS Cosworths were exiting - I had estimates ranging from 50mph to 140mph!

Therefore there will never be any proof (unless going stupid for more than 1 lap) that a driver has broken the code!

Maybe I am looking for something too accurate. If we used it but simply expected drivers to slow to approx 60kph, and accepted that gaps may creep this way and that, then it is a great idea.

I still say that one SC improvement would be to close the pits though, to me this is a fundamental weakness in the SC procedure.

[The Fat Clerk]

Haven't we been down this route before 10/15 years ago?

It was called the Battenberg Flag

That worked well didn't it?

[Bodysnatcher]

In Dubai for those without speed limiters a short session behind a course car running at 60 kph was run. I seem to remember the official explanation was so that drivers could figure out what revs they were running in various gears to achieve that 60 kph.

I'm sure something similar could be worked out. (or nowadays just run with a gps enabled smartphone clamped somewhere.)

Policing by the timekeepers is simple enough - and believe me, when the field is all (more or less) doing 60kph, anybody doing more stands out. A quick call to race control usually gets there times inspected. Treat it like 4wo regards offence and penalties perhaps.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by MSA Race Committee proposed reg (Q)15.1.1.(e)

Reason: The Code 60 flag is used successfully in other countries and can be an alternate option available in place of a Safety Car. The wording has been drafted from the Dutch regulations with small changes for UK.

As an alternative with a track record of use in other countries I can't see a reason why not to have this in the Blue Book.

It doesn't mean all Clerks/circuits/clubs will like it or use it, but some will - and some we already know do both when abroad, so why not have the regulation available? It seems particularly sane to add to the weaponry at our collective disposal, especially considering Creventic's move into UK events with the Silverstone 24.

[Richard Duvall]

I presume that the flags would need to be deployed simultaneously at all flag points so that no driver is disadvantaged, whereas the timing of them seeing SC Board & flag has no impact as they all end up in the queue. This implies the need to equip Flag Marshals with radios?

[The Fat Clerk]

I'm always interested in the opinion of others, that's why i've asked for it to be discussed here.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Richard Duvall

I presume that the flags would need to be deployed simultaneously at all flag points so that no driver is disadvantaged, whereas the timing of them seeing SC Board & flag has no impact as they all end up in the queue. This implies the need to equip Flag Marshals with radios?

Sort of. It implies a close relationship between those with comms (whether post chief, flaggie or IO) and the flaggie themselves. Most of the meetings I flag at - mainly, but not exclusively, BRSCC meetings - that relationship exists for the most part.

I found the count in and count out of FCY at the WEC meeting at Silverstone particularly instructive - every post displayed, and withdrew, boards and flags simultaneously.

The concept of F&C is well established in other parts of the world. It could work here too, but that's a whole different discussion!

[M Greenslade]

Having worked trackside in the middle of the night under code 60 in Dubai - it works....bring it on...beats SC any time..

Bladders

[MGDavid]

Driver not marshal - and I like it, I support it wholeheartedly.

[numbersix]

Is this the flag design we're talking about?

512px-Auto_Racing_Code_60_flag.svg.png

I assume it's held stationary.

[deley]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Is this the flag design we're talking about?

Attachment 46529

I assume it's held stationary.

That level of detail doesn't seem to be there at the moment.

Or

Possibly and possibly

[Chigley]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Is this the flag design we're talking about?

Attachment 46529

I assume it's held stationary.

In the UAE it's waved, primarily to make it visible but being such a unique colour it's unmissable what the flag is. It only needs a gentle wave just for effect.

[Norbert]

I have also worked under Code 60 in the middle of the night with a field of over 90 cars circulating and I have never felt safer.

It would have to displayed (and withdrawn and green flag displayed) simultaneously at all posts and therefore could only be used at circuits where radios and/or broadcast system is used.

The instruction is usually given 'All points display Code 60 Flag'. It is normally waved slowly initially (to draw the drivers' attention) then held stationery for the remainer of the period. (If the same size flag is used it is huge!) It is replaced by a waved green flag when it is clear to go racing again.

As others have said.................Bring It On!

I can't see it being utilised at BTCC! Can't have the gaps not being closed up to make good TV!