Proposed Changes to Flag Regs

[Dave Brand]

Being diplomatic I won't comment on the way this has been handled; let's just say I think it's the wrong decision!

However, here's something KayBee's spotted:

Both the single & double waved yellows may be supplemented or replaced by flashing yellow lights. So, if the yellow flags have been replaced by lights, how do you know if the flashing yellow is a "single" or a "double"?

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Being diplomatic I won't comment on the way this has been handled; let's just say I think it's the wrong decision!

However, here's something KayBee's spotted:

Both the single & double waved yellows may be supplemented or replaced by flashing yellow lights. So, if the yellow flags have been replaced by lights, how do you know if the flashing yellow is a "single" or a "double"?

that's nothing new with the lights, but if they are to replace, then the lights that show double waved as in 2 separate lights flashing to indicate this and this would be made know to drivers at their briefing.

Why is when there is a changed, a lot of people goes on about the negative ?

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Greem

. . .
Now turning to the practicalities: I'd like to see an MSA trainer explain exactly how I'm supposed to do a double waved yellow, note car numbers, write a report *and* call in an incident at the same time. . . .

I could tell you but then you'd have to kill me!

Jim
(MSA Lead Trainer)

[Chigley]

Making notes and form filling will take second place. If there is minimal information on the reports the clerks will have to, rely on cctv/come for a chat/make something up (delete as applicable )

Sorry that cannot work. If you have a major incident where the cavalry has been called and it turns into a very nasty incident you would have to give priority to the forms and radio, assuming you are on a blind summit you also need the flags flying. When it goes t*ts up your reports become evidence should court proceedings be necessary.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by gachjoel

Why is when there is a changed, a lot of people goes on about the negative ?

Is it "negative" to ask a question about a possible difficulty?

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by JimW

I could tell you but then you'd have to kill me!

Form an orderly queue, please!

[ascarracinguk]

The msa really are idiots of the highest order....how the hell do they think this is going to work when you have one flaggie on post, trying to wave 2 yellow flags, an oil flag and a white flag....as usual the msa have made an il informed decision, not listened to the people involved and gone ahead with it anyway.....what utter pricks

I might as well shove a broom up my arse and pee on the cars instead of using a fire extinguisher

Maybe the guys who dream up these idiotic ideas should come and spend some days on the bank at club meetings doing what we do

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by gachjoel

that's nothing new with the lights, but if they are to replace, then the lights that show double waved as in 2 separate lights flashing to indicate this and this would be made know to drivers at their briefing.

Why is when there is a changed, a lot of people goes on about the negative ?

Probably because those who decide to introduce such changes have not put sufficient effort into investigating any possible negatives.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I might as well shove a broom up my arse and pee on the cars instead of using a fire extinguisher

But then you would need to display a slippery surface flag as well

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Both the single & double waved yellows may be supplemented or replaced by flashing yellow lights. So, if the yellow flags have been replaced by lights, how do you know if the flashing yellow is a "single" or a "double"?

Using the example of the lights used for F1 events (which as far as I know aren't used for any other UK event...), double yellows have either been denoted by a light flashing at a faster rate than the norm or the light panel dividing itself into two so that as one part of the light is yellow the other half is switched off and vice versa.

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Postie

After a quick phone call to the wife I'm now getting an extra arm for Christmas.

Lol. Get two extra - for those windy days when you have to hold the corner of the flag and move the whole lot up and down to wave it.

Has anyone, anywhere, consulted a flag marshal about this? Or a proper trainer. I get the feeling this was decided by a couple of blazers with G 'n Ts in their hands telling themselves what jolly good fellows those marshal-chappies are (not that I'd have one to dinner, eh what!).

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by kipper

Using the example of the lights used for F1 events (which as far as I know aren't used for any other UK event...), double yellows have either been denoted by a light flashing at a faster rate than the norm or the light panel dividing itself into two so that as one part of the light is yellow the other half is switched off and vice versa.

Nothing like having a consistent system is there.

[Paul Newns]

Guys, whilst I share your frustrations at the changes, the simple fact is that they have been introduced and we have to make them work. So can we turn this around and share good practice and any tips that we can adopt.

I use my own flags which are light weight. I can wave two with one hand (with difficulty). However, I wouldn't want to use circuit flags, which are generally heavier, and with longer poles. So any ideas in using them in an effective way?

I've heard of flaggies in the States tying two flags together. How does that work? Have any of our American colleagues or travelling UK marshals experience of this?

Criticising the MSA won't achieve anything. Working together to adopt good technique will. So let's help each other do the best job we can.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Has anyone, anywhere, consulted a flag marshal about this?

Yes. A number of us wrote in (you had to find the link to do so and had to have heard about it via somewhere like this, of course).

Don't get the impression anyone read the submissions and I'm not aware of anyone getting a reply to say why they were ignored.

Further comment:

You can convey a lot of information by how you wave your yellow, from a gentle wave to a brisk, urgent wave. DWY pretty much force a single rhythm so you're giving less information with more flags. And if (when) one of them gets wrapped around the stick you have to put the other one down to untangle it - how is the previous post going to judge that? Especially somewhere like Copse when you're 400 yards apart.

On your own you'll often have the blue in your hand and a yellow nearby. Now you've got to have two yellows nearby and the green. Most posts are simply not equipped properly for this and on a wet windy day you're constantly collecting them anyway.

Seriously considering giving flags a miss now, except at FIA. And who'd have thought the day would come when FIA flags made more sense than local regs?

Someone from the MSA responsible for this is going to come and join us on the flag points early next year, aren't they?

[theracegypsy]

@ Paul. The US two flags is their "Full course double yellow" . It is 2 flags held (or tied) stick to stick and displayed horizontally stationary at all posts to indicate a full course condition (with or without safety car).

The "danger flag" is still a single waved yellow. IMSA and IndyCar use the UK system as was until yesterday with preceding standing yellow and following green, US club racing normally uses just the one yellow with no preceding or following flag.

[wolfhound]

If you have to use two flags at one time and you are flagging alone when you have an incident that needs to be reported.
My suggestion is that a whole new set of procedures will need to be developed. However race control is going to have to compromise on what information they get. My suggestion is that written reports will have to wait but first the incident needs to be called in.
To do this while double flagging then each post will need a radio with headset that can be operated while holding the flags (i.e. the mike button can be held in your hand while flagging). I don't whether there is anything out there that can do that but....
Race control will need to be able to write down a verbal report to paper that can be signed later.
Also new radio messages might be developed that are very brief so that the flagger can concentrate on giving deploying the flags.
Another suggestion is that senior flaggers might be given the authority to deploy a red flag without going through race control (very unlikely).
The other way that is not always possible is that an adjoining post might be able to do the communication to race control, but they may not always see the incident properly depending on location.
I do not agree with the use of double waved flags where there are only one flagger per post as it will stretch the system leading to problems when something big happens.

I would also put in a request to the MSA for guidence on how to carry out all the functions required with one person per post and even ask those that brought out the regulation to do it themselves.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Woolley

And who'd have thought the day would come when FIA flags made more sense than local regs?

I can't say it is something I ever foresaw.

Whilst I don't agree with the new changes (and submitted a consultation response to the MSA outlining my reservations of the new system); I would agree with the views of Paul Newns and that despite its inherent drawbacks, the new system needs to be made to work (somehow).

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by theracegypsy

The US two flags is their "Full course double yellow" . It is 2 flags held (or tied) stick to stick and displayed horizontally stationary at all posts to indicate a full course condition (with or without safety car).

Spent years advocating this instead of the stupid SC boards.

Originally Posted by wolfhound

...a radio with headset that can be operated while holding the flags (i.e. the mike button can be held in your hand while flagging). I don't whether there is anything out there that can do that but...

Also new radio messages might be developed that are very brief so that the flagger can concentrate on giving deploying the flags.

*cough* landlines *cough* Real time reporting, switch for microphone can be remote from the headset. Can talk while flagging. Maybe something good can come out of this. Cart before the horse, though, unfortunately. Will only be looked at after something's gone horribly wrong rather than preparing the ground so that there's a chance it won't.

[Chigley]

I would like to know who are the MSA knuckle heads and which MSA committee can't read or listen. Consultation my arse, looks good, reads good, means absolutely FA.

[Apple]

As someone said earlier if there is one person on post they are unable to carry out their duty's simple's
The manning levels are not safe so we all go home early
Not my fault mate go and talk to the MSA

If it goes wrong and ends up in court, I dont want to be the one that is blamed for not giving the right signal.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

Guys, whilst I share your frustrations at the changes, the simple fact is that they have been introduced and we have to make them work. So can we turn this around and share good practice and any tips that we can adopt.

I would suggest a starting point would be for the BMMC representative to urgently request that the MSA suggest how they expect this system to be implemented at club level with minimum manning levels. Are they for example, going to enforce a minimum manning level requirement on post to allow for two flag marshals.

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

I use my own flags which are light weight. I can wave two with one hand (with difficulty). However, I wouldn't want to use circuit flags, which are generally heavier, and with longer poles. So any ideas in using them in an effective way?

Nice as a party trick - I don't think I came across anyone else who could do it in 30 years of flagging! I would however question whether waving two yellow flags with one hand really counts as a double waved yellow - I certainly doubt that it would be readily distinguishable from a single waved yellow for the majority of preceding flag points or from the cockpit of a car at speed.

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

Criticising the MSA won't achieve anything.

Probably not, but at least it leaves a record that those who understand how it really works at the coal face are concerned. As another poster pointed out - do you want to have to explain in court why the 'correct ' flag signals where not shown.

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

Working together to adopt good technique will. So let's help each other do the best job we can.

Not sure I share your optimism that a 'good technique' can be found.
I certainly do not envy you the task of trying to 'sell' this idea to a room full of flag marshals at the next training day.

[Slipstick]

I wonder if the clubs are allowed to write their own rules as I vaguely remember they did in original Battenberg days saying something like "Ignore the Blue Book and amendments, at our meetings we do it the good old-fashioned way" ?

That would be fun and would really make it worth listening carefully to the morning briefings .

Steve

[wolfhound]

To me the important thing is to get the flag(s) out and then communicate with race control by the simplest means possible. A stand can be provided for the safety car board.
The other thing is for lone flaggers is to make their situation known to the COC prior to going out on circuit so that they are aware that there will be compromises and will require back up at times.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Chigley

I would like to know who are the MSA knuckle heads and which MSA committee can't read or listen.

All of them. See similar "why aren't the MSA listening" discussions about seat life in stage rallies

[Gerryc]

Originally Posted by Chigley

....... If you have a major incident where the cavalry has been called and it turns into a very nasty incident you would have to give priority to the forms and radio, assuming you are on a blind summit you also need the flags flying. When it goes t*ts up your reports become evidence should court proceedings be necessary.

If there is a nasty accident with serious injury or loss of life then "the authorities" are going to want evidence that we (the Post Chief and Flag Marshal) were "taking reasonable precautions and exercising reasonable care". I know we do this as volunteers but the duty of care argument would be brought up in a Coroner's Court.

When I attend training in 2014 I will be asking for a clear statement in writing from the MSA as to what their interpretation of reasonable care would be for a single-manned flag point, or even worse a single-manned combined Post Chief and flag point. I would like the MSA, not me, to make the decision of what has priority: double waved yellows, reporting by phone / radio, noting things down for the major incident report such as car positions before the incident etc.

Single-manned flag points are a fact of life going forward - as are these new rules. If (when) it proves impossible to correctly apply the new rules and also keep the CoC informed in real-time, or to accurately complete any written reports later; then I would like there to be written guidance from the MSA on what procedure to adopt. They can then be responsible for showing the Coroner that this procedure was "reasonable".

I don't even want to think of the added complications of reporting 1 wheel off as well as a single-manned Post Chief / Flagger!