Group A Holden Commodores in Europe

[Andy Clegg]

If you zoom in on above pic of Grice's Car, Galvin is shown as the driver.

[WGR4]

Originally Posted by david5

Are you refering to the VL that dropped it's back axle whle being driven by TW in 88 ? If so this car was rebuilt by HRT & was the 90 Bathurst winner.

Im doing some research on the Herbie Clips TWR VL Commodores at the moment and came across this thread.

The reason for the research is due to another Vehicle surfacing recently i have reason to believe that the 1990 Bathurst Winner was not the rebuilt car from 1988 and that the car that has appeared is in fact one of the Herbie Clips VL's and quite possible that it is the 1988 # 20 Walkinshaw/Allam Commodore

differences between the 1988 # 20 and 1990 bathurst winner are as follows:

Dry break fillers - 88 car between tail lights - 90 car has them in the rear 1/4 panels - fillers still located between tail lghts on the car that has surfaced.

Cut outs on panel between windscreen and bonnet - evident on 88 car
and not on 1990 Bathurst Winning car - the cut outs are unique to Norm Moggs ex HRT car and the car that has surfaced recently,They seam to be a european thing.

Rear parcel shelf and seat back panel on the Herbie Clips / 1988 TWR has a flat painted fill in panel that covers this area - once again not evident on the 1990 Bathurst winner.

Need to obtain some more photo's of the the 1990 Bathurst winner air jack location.

Would also like to know if anybody has the entry list for the 1989 Australian Grand prix Support race or photo's, need to confirm that HRT/Perkins ran 2 cars and that there was also an entry from Tommy Suharto.

Thanks in advance

[MalcolmC]

Originally Posted by WGR4

Would also like to know if anybody has the entry list for the 1989 Australian Grand prix Support race or photo's, need to confirm that HRT/Perkins ran 2 cars and that there was also an entry from Tommy Suharto.

Here's the entry list published in the programme along with the Auto Action report:
http://s1179.photobucket.com/albums/...GP%20Supports/

[chunterer]

Thanks Malcolm,
also WGR4, there's excellent year by year ATCC threads for the Group A era in this section and I think the 89 event has been covered?

[anthony81901]

I wouldn't read too much into the differing location of fuel fillers, bonnet holes etc. The 1988 was run under the FISA who had a much more liberal interpretation of the rules than their Australian counterparts. The 1990 Bathurst car was presumably rebuilt to mirror the ATCC car, which I believe was a rebuild of PE008.

The 2 HRT cars at the Adelaide GP in 1989 were two of PE005, PE008 and TWR022. Tommy Suharto ran a 2nd VL under the Perkins Engineering banner in at least one round of the 1990 ATCC (TWR022?) and a Perkins built VN at the Adelaide GP in 1991. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsFdp...w5aTQ&index=68 00:41

[WGR4]

Originally Posted by anthony81901

I wouldn't read too much into the differing location of fuel fillers, bonnet holes etc. The 1988 was run under the FISA who had a much more liberal interpretation of the rules than their Australian counterparts. The 1990 Bathurst car was presumably rebuilt to mirror the ATCC car, which I believe was a rebuild of PE008.

The 2 HRT cars at the Adelaide GP in 1989 were two of PE005, PE008 and TWR022. Tommy Suharto ran a 2nd VL under the Perkins Engineering banner in at least one round of the 1990 ATCC (TWR022?) and a Perkins built VN at the Adelaide GP in 1991. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsFdp...w5aTQ&index=68 00:41

The car that has surfaced is still painted in HRT 89 colours, was sold to the previous owner by Win Percy and from what the new owner has informed me it still has herbie clips blue and yellow under the paintwork, has never had the fillers in the rear 1/4 panels only between the taillights and has a logbook entry for the 89 AGP hence why i would like to get some photos or footage from that meeting to work out who was driving the car at that time

[anthony81901]

The original plan for the 1989 ATCC was that Percy & Neil Crompton would drive 2 TWR UK built VLs. In the end the plan was scrapped and the Sandown, Bathurst & Adelaide effort sub-contracted to Larry Perkins.

There was a close-up picture of a VL in HRT livery in the 1989 Bathurst program (printed before the HRT livery first raced at Sandown) with centre locking wheel nuts, as opposed to the 5 stud variety used by Perkins. So perhaps a 2nd VL was shipped across from TWR.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by anthony81901

The original plan for the 1989 ATCC was that Percy & Neil Crompton would drive 2 TWR UK built VLs.

Percy had even moved over here at the start of 1989 in preparation for the ATCC attack.

Neil Crompton did alot of testing during the 1988/89 off season in the #20 Walkinshaw/Allam Bathurst Commodore, Auto Action ran a picture of 'Neils on Wheels' testing the car at Calder, still in the #20 livery.

Who built the car that went to the Wellington 500 at the end of 1988 to be driven as #20 for Jeff Allam/Andy Wallace?? (ie...was it a TWR car or a Perkins car?)

[MalcolmC]

Originally Posted by one five five

Who built the car that went to the Wellington 500 at the end of 1988 to be driven as #20 for Jeff Allam/Andy Wallace?? (ie...was it a TWR car or a Perkins car?)

It's not a great photo but might be of some help.
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...00-1988-20.jpg

[anthony81901]

Originally Posted by one five five

Who built the car that went to the Wellington 500 at the end of 1988 to be driven as #20 for Jeff Allam/Andy Wallace?? (ie...was it a TWR car or a Perkins car?)

Perkins chassis PE004, 5 stud wheels are a giveaway. Same car Allam ran at Sandown as #11, and Denny Hulme in practice at Bathurst as #40 and the Adelaide GP as #11.

[davyboy]

Ex Slako/Leeds VLSS from 1989.

[Graham Clayton]

Originally Posted by Eddy V

Yes there were. A few seasons Paul Kumpen (former Peka Racing boss, now GLPK Racing) drove that car and then for one other season a clubracer tried it. Guess they were all before Franssen.
Kumpen then went on to circuit racing, as he'd won everything else in RC.

Eddy V,
I found this picture on a French forum. Is this the Franssen car?

[KA]

Looks like it- the Camel & Car Glass sponsorship suggests it's the Franssen car- both sponsors were associated with Paul Kumpen's team for a while- IIRC they were usually entered under the 'Car Glass Team' name?
After Camel quit, they ran in a red/white 'Car Glass' colourscheme, and oddly the car seems to have appeared in both 'Walkinshaw' Evolution VL and 'HDT/Brock' VL guise at various times up to the end of Group A/Division 1 in the ERC, around 1992. Drivers were usually Franssen and Eddy Guffens as well as Kumpen himself

More pics here:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....9&postcount=81
...and a load more here:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=182
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=183

[racer69]

Originally Posted by WGR4

The car that has surfaced is still painted in HRT 89 colours, was sold to the previous owner by Win Percy and from what the new owner has informed me it still has herbie clips blue and yellow under the paintwork, has never had the fillers in the rear 1/4 panels only between the taillights and has a logbook entry for the 89 AGP hence why i would like to get some photos or footage from that meeting to work out who was driving the car at that time

TWR built two 'Herbie Clips' VL Commodore's didn't they? An '87-spec car used at the Nurburgring WTCC round (and presumebly later updated to '88 "Batmobile" specs), and the '88-spec car debuted at the Birmingham BTCC event and raced at the Silverstone ETCC race and then repainted for the '88 Tooheys 1000?

Perhaps both cars made it to Australia for the team to use.

TWR originally planned (according to a Channel 7 story at the time) to run two VL's in the 1987 WTCC, and both entries were pulled rather late.... so there is a chance they may have had two as early as the start of 1987 (making perhaps 3 were built in Europe)

[KA]

There definitely were two VLs in 1987, as one of the pics on this link will show...

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=124

As you say, presumably one of these became the UK-built 1988-spec 'batmobile' for Birmingham, the TT and Bathurst- but what happened to the other?

Going back to the 1987 TWR Holden(s), there was also a 2-car TWR entry supposedly placed for the BTCC round at the British GP at Silverstone in July (Commodore for Walkinshaw and one of the '86 Rovers for Jeff Allam), however this didn't show, as they took the VL to the Nurburgring WTCC round that weekend instead- the Autosport report of the GP support entries printed the previous week hinted that the Nurburgring appearance was a possibility (The headline was 'What's Tom up to now...?')

I quoted the report earlier in the thread here:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...te#post2673593

It was illustrated with a pic that confuses the issue even further- a testing shot of a plain white VK with a TWR logo on the windscreen sunstrip.
That raises a whole series of questions- where did this VK test hack come from?, was it presumably updated to become one of the pair of 1987 VLs? and what happened to it next?

[WGR4]

Originally Posted by KA

There definitely were two VLs in 1987, as one of the pics on this link will show...

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=124

As you say, presumably one of these became the UK-built 1988-spec 'batmobile' for Birmingham, the TT and Bathurst- but what happened to the other?

Going back to the 1987 TWR Holden(s), there was also a 2-car TWR entry supposedly placed for the BTCC round at the British GP at Silverstone in July (Commodore for Walkinshaw and one of the '86 Rovers for Jeff Allam), however this didn't show, as they took the VL to the Nurburgring WTCC round that weekend instead- the Autosport report of the GP support entries printed the previous week hinted that the Nurburgring appearance was a possibility (The headline was 'What's Tom up to now...?')

I quoted the report earlier in the thread here:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...te#post2673593

It was illustrated with a pic that confuses the issue even further- a testing shot of a plain white VK with a TWR logo on the windscreen sunstrip.
That raises a whole series of questions- where did this VK test hack come from?, was it presumably updated to become one of the pair of 1987 VLs? and what happened to it next?

the herbie clips chassis that my friend has purchased is still in 1989 HRT colours it was purchased by its previous owner straight from Win Percy in the early 90's has all the European wiring in it and all of the herbie clips colours are still evident in the dry break filler holes in the boot lid from it previous non walkinshaw kitted days. The interesting part is that this car was the VK, it has VK chassis # and captive nuts in the windscreen pillars, the only confusing thing is that the floor pan is VL, there in the hump in the floor on the passenger side, this was introduced on VL due to the road cars having a cat converter for unleaded fuel. Can anyone shed some light on this vehicles VK history

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by WGR4

the herbie clips chassis that my friend has purchased is still in 1989 HRT colours it was purchased by its previous owner straight from Win Percy in the early 90's has all the European wiring in it and all of the herbie clips colours are still evident in the dry break filler holes in the boot lid from it previous non walkinshaw kitted days. The interesting part is that this car was the VK, it has VK chassis # and captive nuts in the windscreen pillars, the only confusing thing is that the floor pan is VL, there in the hump in the floor on the passenger side, this was introduced on VL due to the road cars having a cat converter for unleaded fuel. Can anyone shed some light on this vehicles VK history

My money would be on this car being the original TWR 'VL' test hack..... I've seen pictures of it as a VL apparently at Monza or Zolder in testing either late in 1987 or early in 1988 when the prototype bodykit had been added. The aero kit bits weren't the same colour as the blue/yellow on the rest of the car.

Without going back through the thread, did we verify what happened to the Brock VK that stayed in the UK for Vince Woodman to run at the TT? Did it go back to Australia or is that the car that TWR purchased?

[Francois78]

Hi all .

Here is a motor racing video from my archives :
http://hoslotfrance.free.fr/?p=153

You'll see some views of the Guy Frequelin's opel senator in 1986 .
I've done this motorsport video during the Rouen Les Essarts round of the french production championship .

Regards. François

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by WGR4

the herbie clips chassis that my friend has purchased is still in 1989 HRT colours it was purchased by its previous owner straight from Win Percy in the early 90's has all the European wiring in it and all of the herbie clips colours are still evident in the dry break filler holes in the boot lid from it previous non walkinshaw kitted days. The interesting part is that this car was the VK, it has VK chassis # and captive nuts in the windscreen pillars, the only confusing thing is that the floor pan is VL, there in the hump in the floor on the passenger side, this was introduced on VL due to the road cars having a cat converter for unleaded fuel. Can anyone shed some light on this vehicles VK history

The Commodore floor pan did change from VK to VL but as you stated, the only difference was the raised section in the left hand front section to provide clearance for the (Nissan 6) cat converter. My VH shell was converted to VK then had the LHF VL floor section put in in a still-born attempt to update to VL. The other difference VK to VL is the plenum area. Any photos?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Francois78

Hi all .

Here is a motor racing video from my archives :
http://hoslotfrance.free.fr/?p=153

You'll see some views of the Guy Frequelin's opel senator in 1986 .
I've done this motorsport video during the Rouen Les Essarts round of the french production championship .

Regards. François

Fantastic video François, thanks for posting it. I think it's the first time I've seen those cars moving... I only ever saw photos of them. Amazing stuff.

[Francois78]

Very glad you appreciate . I'll upload the next episode next friday .

[Graham Clayton]

I found a reference on the following website that shows that Michel Pincon drove a Commodore in the 6th round of the 1993 French Rallycross championship at Luneville:

http://www.schafer-competition.com/f...villeClass.htm

Here is a photo of the car:



Which ex-Group A car is it?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Graham Clayton

I found a reference on the following website that shows that Michel Pincon drove a Commodore in the 6th round of the 1993 French Rallycross championship at Luneville:

Which ex-Group A car is it?

My initial thoughts is it's one of the VL's that came into Europe in 1987 for the WTCC and Belgian series and then presumably sold onto the rallycross fraternity afterwards, like with the Serge and Kumpen camps?

It would be interesting to know what happened to it after 1993, certainly late for a GrA VL to be still running in Europe?

[Don Vito]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

http://www.geocities.com/supersaloon...tolista-1.html - this site tells about two VL/SS's in Finnland. Both were racing in 1992 Nordic Cup for Group A and '91 DTM spec. cars. Juhani Pakari and Pertti Kurki-Suonio were the drivers. From what I can gather, Pakari bought his car from Serge Power either in 1989 or as a 1989 spec. car, which reminds me that German Peter John planned to run the 1989 DTM with a Serge Power Commodore. That plan fell through as sponsorship failed to materialized.
Jesper

Some new information to an ancient topic....
That Valvoline-sponsored Holden is ex-works, driven @ Bathurst by Peter Brock and in gr.A @ Monza by Moffat and then @ Spa 24h by Holden works team. From them the car was bought to UK by Alan Docking and after a while it found its way to Finnish gr.A by Kurki-Suonio. After gr.A championship dried away, it was driven by Timo Alanko in SuperSaloon class and in the latest race by Jouko Kallio, best known from Sisu Truck Racing Team.
After some suspicious turns, Kurki-Suonio bought the car back to himself and a while after that sold it back to Down-under and now the car is there in some museum fully restored to its 1986 shape.
Kurki-Suonio drove the car at Kemora 500 with Roland Ratzenberger and Alan Docking.

[Alfie72]

Interesting line Don, but can you check your type numbers and sources?

In 1987 I ran the Holden Commodore VK for Alan Docking which in 1988 was swapped for a VL. The VK was sold on and the VL came in.

The 87 VK was the 1986 Roadways/Alan Grice ETCC Chickadee car,, and in 1987 was driven in BTCC by Mike O'Brien.

The 88 VL was supposed to be an ex Peter Brock VL, but in looking at the chassis plates and talking to Australia there was significant doubt as to its true origin.

Around the same time, Alan Moffat was racing in Europe with a Rothmans sponsored VL run by Mick Webb which was based at Alan Docking's workshop, and may well have been driven by Roland as I know he was desperate to have a go in both cars, but there was some sensitivity around him driving the VK for various reasons. Roland certainly did drive the VL at the end of the 1988 BTCC season on some very old Japanese Dunlop radials and was mightily impressive.

In 1987 IIRC AD had a young F3 driver - Robert Amhren - and this was the link used to sell one of the cars into Finland.