|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
7 Aug 2017, 06:34 (Ref:3757923) | #176 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 906
|
Quote:
|
||
__________________
. . . but I'm not a traditionalist so maybe my opinion doesn't count! -TF110 |
7 Aug 2017, 14:53 (Ref:3757989) | #177 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,347
|
To me it needs two things:
1/ A lowish budget entry level prototype class with limited development opportunities for manufacturers to come and play - ie LMP1 with OEM engines and limited hybrid (like F1) if wanted by the entrant 2/ A totally open 'Prototype' class that is true to its name where manufacturers can come and showcase / develop / test new technology - the only rules... you cant use fossil fuels and some basic chassis and safety parameters - do that and see where it goes |
||
|
7 Aug 2017, 16:53 (Ref:3758015) | #178 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,827
|
Does anyone think that if the privateer teams materialize that someone might go for the Gibson 4.5 V8 or the Judd 5.5 V10? They've been offering those engines for a while after they re-spec'd them to the fuel flow meters, but no one's bought one.
Only engine I keep hearing about if the Mechachrome twin turbo V6 developed from their GP2/F2 engine. |
||
|
8 Aug 2017, 06:38 (Ref:3758116) | #179 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 906
|
Maybe in a few years, but it might be pushing premature at this point.
|
|
__________________
. . . but I'm not a traditionalist so maybe my opinion doesn't count! -TF110 |
8 Aug 2017, 07:38 (Ref:3758130) | #180 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,325
|
Some rather scathing words regarding the attractiveness of LMP1 by Porsche head of development Michael Steiner:
http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...-17080703.html Quote:
|
|||
__________________
Ceterum censeo GTE-Am esse delendam. |
8 Aug 2017, 08:59 (Ref:3758140) | #181 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,308
|
Everybody knew coming in that WEC wasn't a high profile series, it was supposed to be the manufacturer commitment to grow it to improve their investment in Le Mans. That's probably why there's so much frustration from the ACO side. WEC was practically created for Audi with the backing of VAG (Porsche announced they'd be joining before Toyota, remember)
Now we've had Peugeot bail on the eve of the first season because of government politics, Nissan embarrass everyone with their completely half-baked entry, Audi leave for reasons that are totally unrelated to the championship, and Porsche opportunistically withdraw without even seeing out the last season of their commitment (when they won't even be racing in Formula E next year anyways), all leaving poor Toyota holding the bag. In any event it's a joke to say the Fuji or Shanghai 6 hours is lacking profile but some ePrix isn't. |
|
|
8 Aug 2017, 09:04 (Ref:3758141) | #182 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,390
|
Quote:
Reality is that whether or not the above were factors, the DEFINING issues were of VAG's, and the wider industry's own creation. Audi, acknowledged above by Herr Steiner as their competitive benchmark, left almost solely because of the impact of 'Dieselgate' Porsche too are now firmly and directly embroiled in the issue with their cars being recalled and the brand now involved in the legal repercussions. The alleged technology 'cartel' issue too is having a major corporate impact. VAG et al re 'locking down' on programmes that are currently a cost centre and the brands are involved in a rapid-fire push to re-invent themselves with cleaner tech. Formula E can be justified as it is a (in fact currently THE) Standard bearer in motorsport for full electrification. Some of the GT racing programmes can be justified as they are profit centres, not cost centres. Others may struggle as we get to new model cycles - Watch this space! |
|||
|
8 Aug 2017, 12:24 (Ref:3758163) | #183 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,934
|
Quote:
And as you know (I don't mean you're guilty of this, but I'm sure you know some who are!), some people won't ask the hard questions, so the report just becomes "Porsche are leaving and it's all the ACOs fault". Shame. |
||
|
8 Aug 2017, 12:26 (Ref:3758165) | #184 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,390
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
8 Aug 2017, 13:26 (Ref:3758172) | #185 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,934
|
Agreed (hence my last sentence). What's more depressing is this interview is now making the rounds on reputable sites, with mention of the additional problems the VAG faced.
|
|
|
8 Aug 2017, 14:33 (Ref:3758193) | #186 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,827
|
Even without dieselgate at VAG (who are still profitable in spite of all the lawsuits and claims), I don't think that LMP1 was sustainable due to cost and lack of interest. That's my opinion on the class as a whole.
I'm also of the opinion that if the rules changes were phased in slower, costs could've been contained. Now dieselgate is an industry problem, as well as cheating on fuel economy. We have the German cartel, and I'm surprised that people haven't complained (especially in the still fairly rural US) about hybrid fuel economy. A Ford Fusion hybrid gets 47mpg city, but it gets no better mileage on the highway, the opposite of what's normally expected from non-hybrids. Ethanol is also kinda a crock, because you take a fuel mileage hit and a lot of it's made from corn rather than switch grass or waste biomass. I'd rather see more efforts be put into renewable or synthetic low emissions fuels before we go all EV and fuel cells. Mostly because such technology can be implemented soon, and EV cars (again, in rural areas) aren't a good bet for buyers. Until they can be made affordable, have range comparable to that of a gasoline or diesel engined car, and can be recharged in like 5 minutes, EV's are going to have a hard time becoming mainstream. How does this relate to LMP1? New tech is what might draw factory teams back in, but the whole industry is having problems, be it emissions, fuel economy, the market place, profits, supply and demand, and anything else you can name. Maybe LMP1 needs to take a step back for a while and just become an "entertainment" focused formula like DPI is. Of course, I don't think that straight up DPI is the answer. The cars need to be faster and development needs to be more open before I'd consider using DPI as the base for LM's top class. But the ACO I feel need to act fast. They should've been proactive, knowing how unstable factory backed racing could be. Now they have to react, whilst seeming acting ignorant to the realities of what's going on now. |
||
|
8 Aug 2017, 14:45 (Ref:3758194) | #187 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 6,209
|
Quote:
“We would have liked to have more competition.” |
||
|
8 Aug 2017, 14:46 (Ref:3758196) | #188 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,390
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
8 Aug 2017, 14:49 (Ref:3758197) | #189 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,827
|
I think that this is in combination of what Porsche felt was worth the investment and the fact that VAG want to be seen as saving face/saving profits. Spending F1-like money for little in return isn't going to look good, especially when your company's parent company is getting sued over dieselgate and might get sued by the German Government and the EU over an anti-trust/anti-competiton cartel. The latter point being basically IMO the EU and Germany not being able to sue Volkswagen Group or anyone else directly over dieselgate since they didn't technically break any laws at the time due to EU emissions testing loopholes.
This reeks of what the FBI did with Al Capone. They and the state of Illinois couldn't make murder, racketeering, and bootlegging illegal liquor charges stick, so they got him on tax fraud/tax evasion. It was the only thing they could pin on him. |
||
|
8 Aug 2017, 14:50 (Ref:3758198) | #190 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,934
|
An exclusive you can find anywhere? I need a dictionary, my head hurts.
|
|
|
8 Aug 2017, 14:53 (Ref:3758199) | #191 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,390
|
|||
|
8 Aug 2017, 14:56 (Ref:3758200) | #192 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,934
|
That's a good point! So if he's doing a bunch of interviews which are all basically identical, are they all exclusives? I feel like we're getting a bit more into philosophy, when the real topic is dieselgate.
|
|
|
8 Aug 2017, 20:48 (Ref:3758268) | #193 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,392
|
Imo, it looks like he's trying to point out things that are 'negative' about the series using that as a justification of leaving the lmp1 class. Reflecting the blame on them is a lot easier than to admit your company screwed up in it's road car division and has massive consequences that reach to the lmp1 program's survival.
|
|
|
8 Aug 2017, 22:12 (Ref:3758277) | #194 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 906
|
I may have forgotten Ferrari F50 arse= Graham Goodwin.
|
|
__________________
. . . but I'm not a traditionalist so maybe my opinion doesn't count! -TF110 |
8 Aug 2017, 23:28 (Ref:3758290) | #195 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,827
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
9 Aug 2017, 00:32 (Ref:3758293) | #196 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,920
|
Quote:
Perhaps the first thing would be to correct the mistake they made in the beginning, that is to equalize all the hybrid categories. They should lower the performance of the 8MJ, 6MJ and 4MJ all to the level of 2MJ. This would not give back the marks that went away but allows to limit a little the performance of Toyota with respect to the LMP1 P and maybe someone tries a 2MJ car. |
|||
|
9 Aug 2017, 01:19 (Ref:3758299) | #197 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,392
|
All they need to do is to open up the fuel flow and others can compete. I think that coupled with a bigger tank will allow privateers and/or low hybrid cars to go just as fast.
|
|
|
9 Aug 2017, 04:56 (Ref:3758328) | #198 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,157
|
Slap a 100 kw limit on the hybrid and 50 kg more weight. Then we might have something worth watching.
|
|
|
10 Aug 2017, 14:06 (Ref:3758623) | #199 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,920
|
Good interview to Ralf Juttner in Sportscar365.
Some Interesting observations: With the potential of no manufacturer-run prototypes competing for overall wins in WEC races next year, many have suggested the integration of IMSA’s DPi formula to LMP1 as an immediate, potentially short-term solution. However according to Juttner, who is now spearheading Mazda’s DPi team in the IMSA WeatherTech SportsCar Championship, it’s not as easy as it looks, particularly with the new-for-2017 LMP2 cars thrown into the mix. “[DPi] could be a solution, a quick solution, but then again it’s not as easy as it probably seems,” he said. “The first side, you cannot just say OK, we hope there are so many private LMP1s coming next year but some people dream about eight. I would be surprised if there were three or four. “But then to take DPis and put them against those LMP1-Ls, then you have to make them quicker than the LMP2s, which you’ve seen how quick those are. “If you want to get those cars at Le Mans four or five seconds quicker than an LMP2, then I think you are quickly reaching a limit with those cars as well. The engine and stuff, it will break. |
||
|
10 Aug 2017, 14:11 (Ref:3758625) | #200 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,934
|
I don't think DPi should replace LMP1, but as an invitational IMSA class at Le Mans? That sounds fun.
|
|
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
How about a LMP1 Pro & LMP1 Privateer class | Holt | Sportscar & GT Racing | 35 | 6 Jun 2012 13:44 |
Joest Porsche LMP1 | Megatron | Sportscar & GT Racing | 6 | 31 Oct 2003 10:28 |
2004 Riley & Scott LMP1???? | Tim Northcutt | Sportscar & GT Racing | 8 | 12 Oct 2003 10:48 |
To clear up the 675/LMP2/LMP1 for next year... | Megatron | Sportscar & GT Racing | 14 | 11 Aug 2003 21:38 |