Porsche in LMP1!?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Dario911

Toyota is going to show its new Le Mans project: new Toyota LMP1, based on the actual Dome S102. It will probably be showed November 23 on the Fuji track!

http://www.racingworld.it/fiagt/noti...-alla-sua-lmp-

Again, I don't understand Italian, so I had to use Google Translation but only existing facts are:
-there is a mysterious silhuette on the official website
-Toyota Motorsports Festival is 23rd Nov

Correct conclusion: some kind of car is going to be revealed 23rd Nov.
Wrong conclusion: Dome + Toyota = new LMP

You can bet I wish too it would be really LMP, but I want to avoid making assumptions based on purely speculation...

This Toyota thing has been also discussed in this thread, also link to the Toyota website is mentioned here: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...107659&page=18


-edit-

[Dario911]

Toyota has announced its interest to partecipate in Le Mans, but it's not clear if their future program will be in partnership with Dome or Courage (if I'm not wrong). This story is "on air" sine many months.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Dario911

Toyota has announced its interest to partecipate in Le Mans, but it's not clear if their future program will be in partnership with Dome or Courage (if I'm not wrong). This story is "on air" sine many months.

Above you said "new Toyota LMP1, based on the actual Dome S102". Now you say it is unclear who Toyota will partner with.

Remember the Lexus IS-F Racing Concept. That does not mean Lexus is actually racing in DTM...

[Dario911]

Well, the document showed by Autosprint is official, and it's clear FIA is in alert for P1 performances. So, they have intention to slow down them, for safety reasons. This could play a good point for F1, worried for Le Mans success.
If I find it, I'll send it to you!

In the next years, in LMP1 we'll have a great involvement of car manifacturers: together with Audi and Peugeot, there will be Acura, Toyota, Porsche, Aston Martin. I've heard something about BMW, but nothing's for sure. This is happening because Le Mans is more interesting for car manifacturers that Formula 1. More interesting development perspectives. I hope to see a great show, whit all this brand fighting one each other.

The italian article you have read on the link I've send you, it's not the one that shows FIA involvement in slowing down P1. This article has been published on Autosprint. And it's the one I will send you, as soon as possible, if I will find it.

LMP1 technological fall-out on production car is clear, today! In Formula 1 you've got engines with indirect fuel injection! Like the cars 20 years old! In P1 direct fuel injection is a reality since several years! With P1 engines, you can improve all kind of engines, from V6 to V12, not only V8. In F1 engines are all the same: bore x stroke, distribution, injection system, weight, material, etc...
To use the same Forghieri's word, F1 today is just like the Formula 3, but infinitively more expensive!
Where can you find innovations: where you can experiment new solutions or where you are forced to follow a so restrictive rule?

Concluding, I think endurance is the pinnacle of motorsport because:

- More innovation, less restrictive rules
- More technical variety
- Level and experience of competitors
- Direct technological fall-out on production cars
- Great competitive
- Endurance formula is more near to everyday cars

I don't think you can measure the technological interest of motorsport only basing your suppositions on the success of public. It's not the right way. Formula 1 is more "TV friend" because races are shorter (1h30m). This captures public and adrvertising. That's why great manifacturers are so interested in F1! It's showed in all the world, on the contrary of endurance races. People would not be happy (if not a real passionate) to see a 6 hours race, or 2h45 long race.
Formula 1 format is perfect for television. That's the explanation of all.
And they must thank to mr. Eccleston for his way to manage F1.

[Pete Fenelon]

Originally Posted by ThePenguin

They could go to F1 to compete with BMW and Mercedes.

Audi gain nothing by being in F1. They've established themselves at the top of endurance racing - maybe not as big an audience as F1 but they're talking to real petrol (or do I mean diesel!) heads and getting the diesel message across... same in the States, ALMS promotes them as a premium brand and reminds the punters that diesel isn't just for trucks and locomotives!

What would they gain by scuffling around in midfield in F1? Who actually cares what engines the 'privateer' teams run?

Maybe VAG in general needs to lift its sporting profile, but Audi is very well-positioned where it is. I think if VAG wanted to come into F1 it'd need to buy a team with the potential to become competitive with McLaren and Ferrari within 1-2 years (and brand it as VW) - and I don't see anyone selling. Yet. Frank and Patrick aren't getting any younger, though.

[Ultimo]

The Le Mans vs. F1 has come up again. I am not a motorsports technology expert but I think it's fair to say that F1 cars are the most technologically advanced cars out there - the budgets, the aero, the engines, the gearboxes, etc etc. Also they are the lightest and fastest and most expensive.

As for what is the pinnacle of motorsport, that is highly subjective. There are many different kinds of motorsport and why would one be better than the other and it is hard to compare such vastly different sports. I mean there's endurance, drag, open wheel, oval, stock car, road course, long distance, rally and so on. What is the pinnacle? I suppose you can make a choice and if I had to I would chose F1 due to the money and tech and quality of drivers and teams but I'd rather not single out one and evaluate the "best" in each category.

I haven't read all this thread, but is there actually any solid reports of Porsche entering LMP1 or is this all based on a shaky initial report?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Ultimo

I haven't read all this thread, but is there actually any solid reports of Porsche entering LMP1 or is this all based on a shaky initial report?

The ACO annouced that in 2011 LMP1 cars will use the current LMP2 engines. People immediately think Porsche will convert the RS Spyder and go to Le Mans in LMP1.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The ACO annouced that in 2011 LMP1 cars will use the current LMP2 engines. People immediately think Porsche will convert the RS Spyder and go to Le Mans in LMP1.

Autosprint has written clearly Porsche is interested to debut in LMP1. They are working to the car, and Hartmut Kristen confirmed this. But the official announce will come later. As usual for the Porsche, at the end of the season.

[JAG]

Citroen Sport are arguably one of the top 5 manufacturer teams at the moment, they compete in the WRC!

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Dario911

Well, the document showed by Autosprint is official, and it's clear FIA is in alert for P1 performances. So, they have intention to slow down them, for safety reasons. This could play a good point for F1, worried for Le Mans success.
If I find it, I'll send it to you!

In the next years, in LMP1 we'll have a great involvement of car manifacturers: together with Audi and Peugeot, there will be Acura, Toyota, Porsche, Aston Martin. I've heard something about BMW, but nothing's for sure. This is happening because Le Mans is more interesting for car manifacturers that Formula 1. More interesting development perspectives. I hope to see a great show, whit all this brand fighting one each other.

The italian article you have read on the link I've send you, it's not the one that shows FIA involvement in slowing down P1. This article has been published on Autosprint. And it's the one I will send you, as soon as possible, if I will find it.

LMP1 technological fall-out on production car is clear, today! In Formula 1 you've got engines with indirect fuel injection! Like the cars 20 years old! In P1 direct fuel injection is a reality since several years! With P1 engines, you can improve all kind of engines, from V6 to V12, not only V8. In F1 engines are all the same: bore x stroke, distribution, injection system, weight, material, etc...
To use the same Forghieri's word, F1 today is just like the Formula 3, but infinitively more expensive!
Where can you find innovations: where you can experiment new solutions or where you are forced to follow a so restrictive rule?

Concluding, I think endurance is the pinnacle of motorsport because:

- More innovation, less restrictive rules
- More technical variety
- Level and experience of competitors
- Direct technological fall-out on production cars
- Great competitive
- Endurance formula is more near to everyday cars

I don't think you can measure the technological interest of motorsport only basing your suppositions on the success of public. It's not the right way. Formula 1 is more "TV friend" because races are shorter (1h30m). This captures public and adrvertising. That's why great manifacturers are so interested in F1! It's showed in all the world, on the contrary of endurance races. People would not be happy (if not a real passionate) to see a 6 hours race, or 2h45 long race.
Formula 1 format is perfect for television. That's the explanation of all.
And they must thank to mr. Eccleston for his way to manage F1.

Fundamented, clear and intelligent point of view, that i absolutely agree with! The technology in F1 is street irrelevant!

[chewymonster]

The hybrid systems for race cars so far have yielded little gain in fuel economyu. The Peugeot only claims 3% better fuel economy.

Also for comparison, F1 cars use up about 75 liters per 100 km, while the Audi R10 only uses less than 45.

[JAG]

Interestingly in this months Racecar Engineering, there's an article that says future F1 cars will have a number of spec parts, i.e. gearboxes, underfloor etc., with other areas that are totally free.

Tony Purnell is a technical consultant to F1 and says the formula cannot afford to have as open regs as Le Mans, the costs will be too high.

So in a few years time, a Le Mans car that exploits the regulations to the max will be to a higher technical level, as a whole, than an F1 car. Albeit F1 manufactuers will likely spend far greater sums on the few areas that are free to develop.

[Dario911]

LMPs are clearly more technological. F1 is like a single seater trophy. But a lot more expensive!

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Dario911

In the next years, in LMP1 we'll have a great involvement of car manifacturers: together with Audi and Peugeot, there will be Acura, Toyota, Porsche, Aston Martin. I've heard something about BMW, but nothing's for sure.

Toyota, Porsche and AM you can put to the "maybe" list. I'd add Jaguar to that list too. And you must be confusing BMW to its GT2 program?

The italian article you have read on the link I've send you, it's not the one that shows FIA involvement in slowing down P1. This article has been published on Autosprint. And it's the one I will send you, as soon as possible, if I will find it.

Found it yet?

LMP1 technological fall-out on production car is clear, today! In Formula 1 you've got engines with indirect fuel injection! Like the cars 20 years old! In P1 direct fuel injection is a reality since several years!

Lack of direct injection makes F1 engines totally retro? Then I guess you can call most of the engines in the back P1 and P2 cars (old Judds for example) retro engines too.

With P1 engines, you can improve all kind of engines, from V6 to V12, not only V8. In F1 engines are all the same: bore x stroke, distribution, injection system, weight, material, etc...

Then in that case Acura 3.4L V8 is "all the same" than Porsche 3.4L V8. No?

Where can you find innovations: where you can experiment new solutions or where you are forced to follow a so restrictive rule?

You're right, F1 is becoming more and more restrictive all the time. Max Mosley even lately published his idea of single make engines. Altough I have never claimed otherwise.

I don't think you can measure the technological interest of motorsport only basing your suppositions on the success of public. It's not the right way.

But it's still not the only reason.

Formula 1 is more "TV friend" because races are shorter (1h30m). This captures public and adrvertising. That's why great manifacturers are so interested in F1! It's showed in all the world, on the contrary of endurance races. People would not be happy (if not a real passionate) to see a 6 hours race, or 2h45 long race. Formula 1 format is perfect for television. That's the explanation of all.

No it isn't the explanation. There are numerous series with even shorter races than F1... yet they are not more popular than F1.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by JAG

Interestingly in this months Racecar Engineering, there's an article that says future F1 cars will have a number of spec parts, i.e. gearboxes, underfloor etc., with other areas that are totally free.

Don't get so excited yet, that's just one of Mosley's brainfarts.

Tony Purnell is a technical consultant to F1 and says the formula cannot afford to have as open regs as Le Mans, the costs will be too high.

That's (underlined part) a quote from him?

[zac510]

It's getting old fellas, let's stitch it up or move it to a new thread..

[HORNDAWG]

Well with all the snippets of Penske not being in a Porsche next year I would think that a Porsche P-1 is not going to immediately show up. Unless of course they are planning on running it in the LMS only to start with, which I doubt, especially with that causing the loss of such a quality team in Penske.


L.P.

[AU N EGL]

Isn't Penske also a technical partner for Porsche?

Didn't Penske recently purchase a floundering large Porsche franchise in Germany.

How many US Porsche Franchise stores does Penske own?

ok for a matter of fact how many Toyota franchises does Penske Own?

This says quite a bit in this picture: http://www.penskeracing.com/

Mr Penske is a good business man. Look at his long time sponsors/ partners

Penske Racing Longtime Sponsors

* 27 Years Snap-on Tools
* 25 Years PPG
* 22 Years Hugo Boss
* 19 Years Philip Morris USA
* 18 Years Miller Brewing Co.
* 18 Years Mobil 1
* 18 Years Mazak
* 15 Years Bosch
* 11 Years Lennox
* 9 Years Alltel

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by deggis

Toyota, Porsche and AM you can put to the "maybe" list. I'd add Jaguar to that list too. And you must be confusing BMW to its GT2 program?

No. It was a new published on some sites, some months ago. I suggest it was not true.

Found it yet?

I've got hundreds of Autosprint copies! It's not so easy as you may think, to find the copy I'm searching for! Just a bit of patience!

Lack of direct injection makes F1 engines totally retro? Then I guess you can call most of the engines in the back P1 and P2 cars (old Judds for example) retro engines too.

Yes, Judd engine is not exactly a recent conception one. But they ways for the future are sDFI, Hybrid, etc...

Then in that case Acura 3.4L V8 is "all the same" than Porsche 3.4L V8. No?

You must consider Porsche and Acura has got the same displacement, cylinders number and architecture. But they could choose a different angle for their V8s, no weight limitation, less restriction. For example, Porsche has got DFI, Acura not.

You're right, F1 is becoming more and more restrictive all the time. Max Mosley even lately published his idea of single make engines. Altough I have never claimed otherwise.

Mosley is only a money and sado-maso machine! You can call him Mister Bondage!

But it's still not the only reason.

It's not a reason at all!

No it isn't the explanation. There are numerous series with even shorter races than F1... yet they are not more popular than F1.

That's the reason. This series have not the same TV and advertising attention, are not international, have a less intelligen management.
You could make Eccleston to manage the donkey races, and you could obtain wonderful results! Donkey races would be more interesting and loved than Formula 1!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by deggis

Don't get so excited yet, that's just one of Mosley's brainfarts.


That's (underlined part) a quote from him?

Yes, that's why F1 is moving towards spec parts in areas that can't be seen by the public, i.e. under the skin, but still leaving aero and certain 'green' technologies free.

Le Mans budgets are limited by the amount of publicity a win can generate, in F1 a handful of manufacturer's could justify much bigger budgets if it guaranteed race wins, but the rest of the field would bail.

[JAG]

Back to Porsche, is anyone else suprised Porsche can gain at least 30bhp with the new direct injection engine with a relatively small P2 3.4l V8?

You would assume the old motor was already one of the best in the field.

If the smaller P2 restrictors they've had to run this last year or two gave approximately 535bhp, the jump to 565bhp, possibly 575bhp, is huge.

[Spyderman]

They have had similar gains in their 911 DFI engined road cars (+/-5%)

[deggis]

Hmmm...

Porsche was one of five manufacturers [not counting current engine supplier Honda] to meet with Indy Racing League officials in June and September regarding the IndyCar Series' 2011 engine specifications, as the series seeks future engine suppliers in addition to Honda. But Porsche research and development board member Wolfgang Durheimer does not foresee the German company entering IndyCar competition any time soon.

"IndyCar in the U.S. market is a very important series. Very historic and classic, Roger [Penske] is competing [in it] for a long time, we are good friends with Roger, we are also quite interested in IndyCar," Durheimer told AutoWeek. "But we've defined very closely our motorsport pyramid in the past and [we] try to shake out what is for our customer base the most important series to be in and we found that the [American Le Mans Series] with the prototypes is better suited to the demands of our customers. I think that it is not very likely that we are going into IndyCar. There is no open question [about entering the IndyCar series] on the table right now."

Full story: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20081210/FREE/812109984

Also this from Sportscarpros:

Roger Penske announced on stage in Weissach at the Porsche awards ceremony that he hoped Porsche would have something for him in the future. He neatly skipped over next year’s programme in Grand Am and he admitted afterwards that the Daytona Prototype effort is a way to keep the endurance racing team together. At Penske’s prices, could you imagine Porsche doing so without a long-term plan? Wendelin Wiedeking refused to answer LMP1 questions late in the evening, blaming drink, and eventually he said: “You know why I cannot talk about LMP1 now.” Two options; one there is no programme. The other; this is not the right climate to say anything.

As an eternal optimist, I am going to plump for the latter. Porsche returning to LMP1, perhaps in 2010, as I doubt Penske wants to do a second season in Grand Am, or 2011 when the new rules come into play. Audi is likely to concentrate on GT racing, as stated in the last column, having announced a customer programme, which will come on line at the end of the 2009 season and will take on Porsche, Lamborghini, Corvette, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Maserati, Ford…the list goes on.

http://www.sportscarpros.com/cottonb...er/default.htm

[The Badger]

OOoooohhhhh ..... Keep feeding Wiedeking more drink I say !!!

Certainly sounds like something is in the water ..... or drink .

[TWK]

Originally Posted by JAG

Back to Porsche, is anyone else suprised Porsche can gain at least 30bhp with the new direct injection engine with a relatively small P2 3.4l V8?

You would assume the old motor was already one of the best in the field.

If the smaller P2 restrictors they've had to run this last year or two gave approximately 535bhp, the jump to 565bhp, possibly 575bhp, is huge.

I'd say, offhand, that the Porsche Spyder engine was the second best 3.4 liter V8 in the ALMS field.