All time best drivers?

[Mr V]

I was pondering this question to Sato san and John SCC......

How do these guys compare to the "all time greats", will there ever be a time when their names are mentioned in the same breath/lists as the usual suspects - Senna, Prost, Schumacher etc etc, never before has there been a season this long when 4 drivers could win the title in the last race, 5 with 2 races to go. But will those usual suspects always be looked upon with rose tinted glasses, or is it possible that those days/talent can never be matched? Martin Brundle has mentioned a few times over the course of this season that the level of talent in F1 has never been higher than it is now, but is he talking in general across the board, or the level of the top 3 or 4?

There is always going to be disagreement about Michael's level now after being out for 3 seasons, but he's been drubbed by Rosberg, who certainly isn't at the level of Vettel, Alonso or Hamilton. Alonso beat Schumacher to the title while he was still driving for Ferrari, Hamilton and Vettel have now beaten Alonso. Will those lists ever be changed/amended to allow some of todays drivers in the all time best lists?

What do you guys think?

[ralf fan]

Alonso already deserves to be in the list. Hamilton will soon make it as well. I think in 10 years time I'll be proud to have said that I watched these two guys race in their prime.

Don't know about the others yet.

[Fox89]

I'd concur with Alonso and Hamilton. Don't think anyone else deserves to be on that list though.

[steve_r]

It's almost impossible to compare drivers from different eras. To be mentioned alongside Senna, Prost, Fangio and Schumacher etc, the current crop need to win multiple WDCs. The thing is, even though they seem to have been around for years Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso are the three youngest WDCs ever, and time is on their side to possibly pick up several titles each.

[old man]

I Agree with Steve_r, the comparison is very difficult because of the technology for one thing. The posts so far don't go back to the greats that would be in my overall list, Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart are all drivers I watched with awe, earlier drivers like Nuvolari I have only read about. It seems to me a modern F1 driver has to have different skills from those of 20 years ago, let alone those of 50 years ago.

The era of the four wheel drift, the simple aerodynamics, the real and present danger presented by the cars themselves and the circuits they raced on required different approaches. Now we need drivers able to cope with many variables, many buttons and adjustments on the steering wheel, many comparisons in the data available to them, a need to understand and measure performance against what the log shows to be the ideal lap, best point to brake, accelerate, turn in and all theother variables.

It is not enough now to have good reactions, balance, judgement and courage so I feel we perhaps should not try to measure these greats against each other, it has been tried every winter when a journalist has nothing to write about and is amusing but pointless. They can only be measured in real time against their peers and then when retired remembered for the pleasure they gave us.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by old man

I Agree with Steve_r, the comparison is very difficult because of the technology for one thing.

I agree about the technology side etc, my question i suppose is - can we, as a fan base, ever see these younger guys, or allow ourselves to see these younger guys as good as the guys from yesteryear.

Someone mentioned that time was on their side. Within 5 years time, Seb, Lewis and Fernando could all, concievably have 3 WDC's each, that equals Senna and Stewart.

[ljakse]

IMHO, Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel will be remembered as great ones.
As already pointed out, all three of them are very young, and I can see them winning many more WDC's in years to come.

[ensign14]

Alonso and Hamilton are up there now. Vettel will almost certainly join them and Kubica on a balance of probabilities. So long as he's not a Fisichella.

Right now I'd put Alonso and Hamilton somewhere between Prost and Mansell - probably on a par with Lauda - but both with the capabilities of getting amongst the true legends.

[Bononi]

Vettel is promising. Teflonso and Hamilton have a great chance to be there someday.

[Teretonga]

Of the present crop Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel, have the ability or potential to become greats, but I don't think anyone really can be measured in terms of greatness until after their career is basically over.

Hindsight, time and historical perspective are the major sharpners of greatness and they don't become major factors until after a career has ended.

[Aysedasi]

All three have the potential - but to achieve what? The question is actually meaningless as the achievements of Prost, Senna and latterly Schumacher can't easily (if at all) be compared with Stewart or Clark or Fangio or Nuvolari. In my opinion none of them are that kind of level - yet - but I'll wager that probably all three of them will eventually be - or will be thought by many to be (while the older F1 generation will probably disagree......).

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

All three have the potential - but to achieve what? The question is actually meaningless as the achievements of Prost, Senna and latterly Schumacher can't easily (if at all) be compared with Stewart or Clark or Fangio or Nuvolari. In my opinion none of them are that kind of level - yet - but I'll wager that probably all three of them will eventually be - or will be thought by many to be (while the older F1 generation will probably disagree......).

To achieve what?
To be placed as the greatest, or one of the greats, of their era....

I would agree that you cannot really compare Fangio with Hamilton in an objective fashion. Nor do I think that 7 WDC's automatically puts Schumacher alongside Clark or Fangio.

When you talk about greats you are simply recognising that a particular driver was the greatest or one of the greatest of his era, and subsequently (perhaps) could be listed as one of the greats of all time.

But any such list is highly subjective, not objective and would vary according to the weighting given to particular skills and abilities, and career results.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

To achieve what?
To be placed as the greatest, or one of the greats, of their era....

Ah, well that's different. No mention of 'of their era' in post #1 as far as I can see. Post #1 says 'All time best drivers'......

Now. How long does an era last.......? The era since Schumacher, perhaps?


If you're simply talking of an era, then yes, I have no doubt that Hamilton and Vettel will be so viewed and I agree with whoever suggested that Teflonso is already. But I fear that's actually setting the bar too low, because if you don't maintain some credible comparison with past eras, the exercise in 'greatness judgement' really is completely pointless.

[Teretonga]

Yes but in an overview you might say that Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, and Lauda were all greats. But that doesn't necessarily rank them in order, and Hamilton Alonso and Vettel may join that list if they become viewed as one of the greats of their era.

Prost and Senna could both be viewed as the greats of their era, and their was overlap between Clark and Stewart, but Clark began F1 at the end of the Moss era, after Fangio had retired. The 'era' isn't fixed but has some fluidity to it. Stewart's real success didn't really begin until after Jimmy had been killed. Prost was established when Senna arrived in F1 but it was their battles which defined their era.

[Paradise City]

Fangio and Clark by a distance simply because of the danger of the era.

Don't get me wrong I think the current best are highly talented but when you throw a serious risk of death into the equation that puts the accomplishments of a man like Fangio way onto another level.

No seatbelts and no helmets at breakneck speeds! That's like war. Could a guy like Alonso compete with that?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Fangio and Clark by a distance simply because of the danger of the era.

Don't get me wrong I think the current best are highly talented but when you throw a serious risk of death into the equation that puts the accomplishments of a man like Fangio way onto another level.

No seatbelts and no helmets at breakneck speeds! That's like war. Could a guy like Alonso compete with that?

No.
I don't think Schumacher, Alonso, Button or most of the present generation has any idea of what drivers of the 50's, 60's and 70's risked and if they found themselves in cars of that era some of them wouldn't be able to compete at the level the greats of those era's were able to.

[Wims]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

...
Nor do I think that 7 WDC's automatically puts Schumacher alongside Clark or Fangio....

You are correct, it puts him way, way ahead of them.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

No.
I don't think Schumacher, Alonso, Button or most of the present generation has any idea of what drivers of the 50's, 60's and 70's risked and if they found themselves in cars of that era some of them wouldn't be able to compete at the level the greats of those era's were able to.

I even remember Schumacher being shocked after trying out Alboreto's 1980's Turbo Ferrari. Those cars had the drivers legs very precariously out near the front of the car and it really seemed to shake him.

[RF_Racer]

Schumacher aside, Alsono is now one of the greats and should be in the greatest of all time history books, he is the complete driver.

For people to say Vettel is one of the best that is premature, he just got lucky being in a car that was the class of the field. He made a lot of mistakes but he drove well in a dominant car. Same as Lewis in the Mclaren in 2007, except Lewis being a rookie lost it right at the end. Vettel is in his 3rd full season. Time will tell..

[Fox89]

Incidentally, I don't think it's too unreasonable to compare drivers of different eras. I mean, it may be unfair to say "Senna is better than Schumacher" or "Hamilton is better than Fangio", but I think there are certain drivers who you can at least put in the same group.

Although the types of challenge drivers face, the level of challenge is consistently high. In Lauda's day the cars may have been more difficult to drive, but if that's so then it stands to reason that in the modern day it is more difficult to stand out. If you can sit in a car that is relatively easy to drive on the absolute limit and manage to distinguish yourself from all the others who are doing that, that makes you pretty special.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Ah, well that's different. No mention of 'of their era' in post #1 as far as I can see. Post #1 says 'All time best drivers'......

Well, as i typed out post #1 i'll digress....

No, i didn't put of their era, but most lists consist of Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio, Stewart and Clark, these guys are usually the names mentioned. Fangio didn't drive in the same era as the others, while Clark and Stewart were the generation before Senna, Prost and Schumacher yet they are all, usually mentioned together. So my question is, will the current crop ever be mentioned in the same breath/list as those i've mentioned?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by RF_Racer

For people to say Vettel is one of the best that is premature, he just got lucky being in a car that was the class of the field. He made a lot of mistakes but he drove well in a dominant car. Same as Lewis in the Mclaren in 2007, except Lewis being a rookie lost it right at the end. Vettel is in his 3rd full season. Time will tell..

Vettel made as many mistakes as his team mate (9th season) and Lewis (4th season).

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

No.
I don't think Schumacher, Alonso, Button or most of the present generation has any idea of what drivers of the 50's, 60's and 70's risked and if they found themselves in cars of that era some of them wouldn't be able to compete at the level the greats of those era's were able to.

But if it was what they grew up with, then they would have done. After all, Schumacher started in the no-HANS, no cockpit side era, and raced without problems. It's only in retrospect when one has the imagination...

In the same way that people deride the physical fitness of some drivers from the past and say they would not have coped with today's g-forces. Again, if born and bred to these cars, those drivers would have a different cardiovascular makeup and routine...

[chavez]

Comparisons between eras are difficult.

For example, Niki Lauda is an all time great, but how would he go today?

Late in his career, while still capable of winning races and world championships, he was a poor qualifier. But steady and conservative race driving often saw him come through the field, while his competitors fell by the wayside often through mechanical unreliability.

Today's F1 requires a driver who can qualify up front and the reliability of today's cars ensures that there are many more cars finishing races.

A 1980's Niki Lauda simply couldn't compete.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by ensign14

But if it was what they grew up with, then they would have done. After all, Schumacher started in the no-HANS, no cockpit side era, and raced without problems. It's only in retrospect when one has the imagination...

In the same way that people deride the physical fitness of some drivers from the past and say they would not have coped with today's g-forces. Again, if born and bred to these cars, those drivers would have a different cardiovascular makeup and routine...

I think that your point is valid and had considered when I wrote my quoted piece.
However I wonder if the sort of person who is attracted to professional racing now is similar to the character of people who were attracted to the sport 30 or 40 or 50 years ago.
That case would mitigate against your point.

My point was (remembering the Schumacher comment cited by Paradise City)
that the some of the current group would find racing more historic machinery in anger a lot more challenging today.