Cheating!

[Bostik]

Ever been to a race meeting where you came away absolutely convinced that the guy that beat you was cheating?

You know - their car easily passes a post race check ok, but you just know that this is a cursory check that will never get to the bottom of what is really going on.
The thing that really sticks in your mind is that when so much time, effort, and all your money goes into your racing - and you suspect a competitor is taking the p**s, it throws into doubt the whole validity of what you are doing.

The reason I ask, is that I believe that the MSA needs to take a more proactive, dramatic and radical approach to help clubs solve this problem - and in a way that will deter cheats with massively punitive punishment for anyone caught with deliberatly illegal engines. Dont have the answer - suspect it may have something to do with much more detailed, persistent and random inspections - but wondered if you had a view on this?
Is this a problem - or not?

[brickkicker]

Great in theory but if you would go to the extent of what they do in national events your costs would go up and you would end up having to spend more time during the week taking you car to be checked.

[JR Ewing]

ANY single-seaters:

Anyone not 'bending' the rules = slow...

[Adam43]

From I've seen the driver behind always thinks that the driver ahead is cheating.

At a recent meeting a relative new boy beat us all. People immediately chose to wonder what he had done to his car. The simple fact was he drove well and the rest of us messed up. He deserved to win. Full stop.

[brickkicker]

Bostik I am guessing that this is a race you or a friend are in. What is it you think the person/s are doing (without naming names or series), and have you spoke to anyone else to see if they feel the same.
As Adam said he may just have had a better day.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Bostik
Ever been to a race meeting where you came away absolutely convinced that the guy that beat you was cheating?

.....but not convinced enough to put your money where your mouth is & lodge a protest?

[ss_collins]

protests are expensive and a folly

[brickkicker]

Protests are only expensive if your wrong if your right you get your money back and the person found cheating has to pay.

Protests are only an option if you can afford to lose the fee money.

[brickkicker]

But if you know your right then you wont lose anything. And protest fees for below national A are 20 quid, not exactly loads

[Bostik]

Brickkicker - this suspicion thing came up again recently, and yes, it was a friend that was possibly suffering at the hands of others.
When you have been actively racing for many years, you develop a keen sense of what is good driving and what is perhaps, let us say, unusual or unexplained. For example, I can remember a particular individual at Mallory running some astonishing laps in qualifying, getting on pole, and finding that I was not the only one to notice the unusual coloured flames from the exhaust. Strange thing was, it all disappeared in the race, as did the pace. Nobody bothered to do anything except gossip!
Two totally seperate and recent incidents spring to mind - where drivers were able to break their lap record with apparent ease / or simply pulled away from similar machines. The experienced eye can usually spot where a driver is making up time, perhaps a well sorted car, or exceptional lines / braking etc. But when it appears to be just unusual straight line speed, and clearly not as a result of better corner exit speed or gearing either.
In that situation, where engines are supposed to adhere to the same blueprint, some ingenious soul can always find ways of making improvements that will never be found by traditional clubbie post race checks - and such improvements are then put down to superior driving or aero or gearing etc.
I would hazard a guess that JR Ewing is right - and there will always be a very small number of people who just plain dont care - and will spoil it for others.
But how, if at all, can they be squeezed out, without further increasing our cost of participating - which in itself is high enough to have us really deal with this issue.

[brickkicker]

If you only gossip nothing will change, if you have been racing for some years then you and your friend will now who to go and speak to and try and get something done about it. You have an eligability scrutineer so use him there is no need to drop names they may already know but am just waiting to prove it.

[terje]

If your allegations fall upon deaf ears or the team you suspect are in some way influential to the series then all the money you are pooring in is wasted, it also makes you look stupid and worst of all makes you doubt your own ability.

So,

My question to you is: if you can 't beat them, do you join them? Or do you find a new championship? (or just play golf?)

[brickkicker]

So far it seems that the allegations havent been made its just all hear say and a bit of gossip. And how can a team be in any way influential???
And its sods law that if you try and join them the first time out youll be caught and it undermines everything you have done in the past

[Adam43]

Originally posted by terje
My question to you is: if you can 't beat them, do you join them? Or do you find a new championship? (or just play golf?)

Never join them. Cheating is cheating.

I suppose I'm lucky in that I race in a championship just for fun and championships and the like are not as important as good fun and good dicing on track. Whether that be for first or tenth.

People can still play with illegal clubs in golf (so I'm told )!

[EvilPumpkin]

Regrettably, you will always find people who will cheat - or push the very limit of the rules - in any form of competition - from tiddlywinks to F1

It's no good complaining that the penalties aren't stiff enough if problems are not being properly reported in the first place, so the first thing to do is to ensure that the issue is raised officially. If you're not prepared to do that, then there's no point in complaining that no-one else is doing anything.

Incidentally, what is the situation with something like this? Some of the classes here have a rule where if you are found to be driving with a "technical infringement" - you lose your points for every race prior to the infringement as well. However, it does vary from class to class.

Are penalties set out by the MSA for everyone or does each racing class have their own rules?

[Bob Pearson]

There is a rather general MSA rule which saya you lose 30 points for any technical infringement, however it isn't always applied.

[RMR]

Bostik, You need to do something rather than just talking to people about it. Or chat to the guy as there maybe a good explaination, like he just got a fresh rebuild?? Been in a paddock so many times when people cant cope with losing so they start rumours, im not saying your doing that but thats how it starts.

[terje]

Scrutineering at club level just isn't stricked enough, in some cases it seems that the scrutineers don't have the facilites or techincal ability to deal with situations. If a couple of drivers from the same team appear to be way ahead of the rest should you not pay alittle more attention to those cars??!

[brickkicker]

If a couple of drivers from the same team appear to be way ahead of the rest should you not pay alittle more attention to those cars??!

No because then you will be accused of being vindictive. At most club meetings there will be someone from the technical commission there or at least your eligibility scrutineer will be there. Your right about the facilities, this is why it would cost you more money and time as the engines would be sealed at the track and then you would have to take it to get checked at a later date.
I know some championships are more strict than others things like the star of the midlands seem to be taking engines apart a lot. But do you really want to be standing around stripping your engine down and then having to rebuild it for the next race or taking it home in a box?

[terje]

Originally posted by brickkicker
But do you really want to be standing around stripping your engine down and then having to rebuild it for the next race or taking it home in a box?

If it means fair racing, i wouldn't have a problem with it.

[brickkicker]

You might not now but 3 hours after your race has finished and you still havent got out of the scute bay with all your bits layed out on the floor you may change your mind.
But if thats the way you feel have you spoke to your championship rep.
And dont forget its you that has to take it apart and put it back together again.

[gttouring]

sorry racers do not 'cheat' let's get this out of the way...It is creative engineering rule interpretation.
The clever win usually not just the fastest...Maclaren Monaco 2002, oil galley routing through telemetry, or a blown mercedes...

[Dr Venom]

If there is a point to be won or a championship, you will find that in any form of racing someone has found a loop hole to get that extra bit of speed.
Bending the rules is just part of the sport, F1 pay a lot of money to the guys that look outside the box to gain that tenth of a second, and the FIA pay a lot more to detect it.
I found that a sharp punch on the nose to the guy who is cheating made me feel a whole lot better.

[Bob Pearson]

And left you with a five year ban!!