V8Supercar Vision

[mac]

I have just finished reading the Auto Fiction V8SuperCar forum and found it rather interesting. Many people are prepared to moan and gripe about the category without suggesting actions that could be taken to improve the show.

Well, that forum has inspired me to come up with a vision ......

THE CARS
The manufacturers involved in the series get together with team owners and engineers to develop a formula that would create fast, loud, spectacular, yet carefully-controlled cars that could be bought for between $150,000 to $250,000.

They will have a common engine formula, common simple suspension set-up with regulated range of adjustment, a single-plane adjustable rear wing and flat-bottom front splitter.

ECU is held by an official body - as in A1GP.

BUILDING THE CARS
Chassis' for each manufacturer will be built by ONE builder.
Engines for each manufacturer will be built by ONE builder.

Building could be an in-house Holden Motor Sport job, Dencar, Perkins, Stone Brothers, whoever ....... each manufacturer nominates one operation to do it.

Point being that all Holdens would be bought from one place, all Fords would be bought from one place. Costs would be controlled by the fact that the manufacture of cars is controlled and all technology is common to all cars.

Chassis and engine regulations must be set for a minimum of three seasons.

TESTING
Due to increased number of races (see below), testing will be limited to three joint tests, one rookie test and one enduro drivers test. Each test will be scheduled for two days - except enduro.

The rookie test will be for rookies or drivers that have not competed in the previous two seasons only, and will be held before the first race of the season.

The three main tests will be at a venue in Queensland, New South Wales and Victoria.

The enduro drivers test will be for confirmed or possible enduro co-drivers not currently racing in V8Supercars (main game or development series)

RACING
The schedule will expand to 17 or 18 rounds - this would obviously depend on various things but this should be the target.

A calendar for 2006 could look like this:

Rookie Test - Phillip Island - 23-24 February
First Official Test - Phillip Island - 26-27 February
Australian Grand Prix - Albert Park - 3x 100km - March 10-12
ROUND 1 & 2: Adelaide - 2x 300km - March 24-26
ROUND 3: Eastern Creek - 1x 300km - April 7-9
ROUND 4: Queensland Raceway - 1x 300km - April 21-23
ROUND 5: Bahrain - 1x 300km - May 12-14
ROUND 6: Shanghai - 1x 300km - May 26-28
Second Official Test - Queensland Raceway - June 7-8
ROUND 7: Barbagallo - 2x 150km - June 16-18
ROUND 8: Hidden Valley - 2x 150km - June 30-July 2
ROUND 9: Townsville - 1x 300km - July 14-16
ROUND 10: Winton - 1x 300km - July 28-30
ROUND 11: Oran Park - 1x 300km - August 11-13
ROUND 12: New Zealand - 1x 300km (not at Puke) - August 25-27
Enduro Co-Drivers Test - Eastern Creek - September 3
Third Official Test - Eastern Creek - September 5-6
ROUND 13: Sandown 500 - 1x 500km - September 15-17 (E)
ROUND 14: Bathurst 1000 - 1x 1000km - October 5-8 (E)
ROUND 15: Indy - 3x 100km - October 19-22
ROUND 16: Symmons Plains - 2x 150km - November 3-5
ROUND 17: Phillip Island - 1x 300km - November 17-19
ROUND 18: Homebush - 1x 300km - December 1-3

POINTS
Points would be allocated per round in accordance with the MotoGP system.

Where a round features more than one race, MotoGP-style points will be allocated for each race - at the end of the round, points are totalled and championship points are allocated.

Note: Adelaide constitutes two separate rounds.

EVENTS
One hour session on Saturday afternoon will determine the grid order. If you can't have a shootout for all 32 cars, don't have one at all.

No split sessions!!!

In short, the goal must be for each event to offer something to the non-hardcore fans, from interesting sponsor promotions to rock concerts!

What do you guys think of this for a starting point ......?

Obviously I have only touched the surface, but could there be some things in here that could be a way for V8Supercars to move forward?

And please, let's keep this constructive - no bagging of the series (looks at D.R.T., racer69 and Cranker ). How can we make it better?

[storyline]

Originally Posted by mac

A calendar for 2006 could look like this:

Rookie Test - Phillip Island - 23-24 February
First Official Test - Phillip Island - 26-27 February
Australian Grand Prix - Albert Park - 3x 100km - March 10-12
ROUND 1 & 2: Adelaide - 2x 300km - March 24-26
ROUND 3: Eastern Creek - 1x 300km - April 7-9
ROUND 4: Queensland Raceway - 1x 300km - April 21-23
ROUND 5: Bahrain - 1x 300km - May 12-14
ROUND 6: Shanghai - 1x 300km - May 26-28
Second Official Test - Queensland Raceway - June 7-8
ROUND 7: Barbagallo - 2x 150km - June 16-18
ROUND 8: Hidden Valley - 2x 150km - June 30-July 2
ROUND 9: Townsville - 1x 300km - July 14-16
ROUND 10: Winton - 1x 300km - July 28-30
ROUND 11: Oran Park - 1x 300km - August 11-13
ROUND 12: New Zealand - 1x 300km (not at Puke) - August 25-27
Enduro Co-Drivers Test - Eastern Creek - September 3
Third Official Test - Eastern Creek - September 5-6
ROUND 13: Sandown 500 - 1x 500km - September 15-17 (E)
ROUND 14: Bathurst 1000 - 1x 1000km - October 5-8 (E)
ROUND 15: Indy - 3x 100km - October 19-22
ROUND 16: Symmons Plains - 2x 150km - November 3-5
ROUND 17: Phillip Island - 1x 300km - November 17-19
ROUND 18: Homebush - 1x 300km - December 1-3

Couple of problems straight off with this - for starters, Bob Jane's AUSCAR company owns the rights to NASCAR in Australia.

Dates - hope you have fun getting Ecclestone to move the AGP for you and move the start of the Commonwealth Games in Melbourne..

Similarly with Bahrain - haven't you read why it is not being held on a weekend?

Bathurst - the requested date is NOT available (ARDC still holding on to that weekend).

And WHY would you go from QLD to Bahrain, then Shanghai back to QLD and then straight across to Perth? Then up to Hidden Valley and THEn across to a circuit that doesn't even exist in Townsville? (Travel logistics alone would scrub that particular format out).

[mac]

Originally Posted by storyline

Couple of problems straight off with this - for starters, Bob Jane's AUSCAR company owns the rights to NASCAR in Australia.

Dates - hope you have fun getting Ecclestone to move the AGP for you and move the start of the Commonwealth Games in Melbourne..

Similarly with Bahrain - haven't you read why it is not being held on a weekend?

Bathurst - the requested date is NOT available (ARDC still holding on to that weekend).

And WHY would you go from QLD to Bahrain, then Shanghai back to QLD and then straight across to Perth? Then up to Hidden Valley and THEn across to a circuit that doesn't even exist in Townsville? (Travel logistics alone would scrub that particular format out).

You are missing the point.

I am not discussing the specific calendar - obviously a lot more thinking would have to go into that than the five minutes I just gave it.

My point is that racing needs to happen more often in this country to maintain public attention (and increase exposure for sponsors) - reduce testing, increase racing, lessen the cost and let's get into it.

The point of the calendar shows how often I think the series should be racing - and the venues I think it should be at.

My post was regarding a platform for the future - not every little semantic and detail of a calendar.

And I used the AGP's traditional date for the purpose of consistency.

[Uncle Cranker]

Mac, I resemble your remark....




On the surface it isn't too bad, I really like the control aspect, based on the KISS principal.
People need to realise the average fan likes noise & smoke, not Billy Wood's & co banging on about Harrop wheelnuts & Modena door trims......

Keeping the costs down is a challenge TEGA & AVE$$CO have failed miserably at doing, a series close to what you have suggested might work.

Interesting comment about control ECU's.
The Euro Porsche Supercup cars that raced at the AGP about 5 or 6 years ago did a 4 day test session at Winton prior to the AGP.
I was there & spoke with one of the British entrants about why x was so much faster that y.
Even in that 'controlled environment' with the Porsche Factory tech's holding the ECU's, there was still variation. (usually caused by extra HP being dialled in by the Techs after an exchange of $$$)


If things like that can be avoided, I say bring it on.

The points system is good, I think MOTO GP have done it very well.

I am not too concerned with logistic of the Calendar, I promised myself to stay positive about this thread, especially after your hurtful closing remark.

[Guest]

Testing is a good idea, but it would be hard and costly for the teams to get their vehicles to the interstate test sessions. Overall the concept seems ok though.

[storyline]

mac - with respect - fair enough if you want to present an 'alternative' but don't start presenting dates then. You do that and you ARE going to get into this type of discussion - because it immediately puts your whole idea in the 'it will never happen' simply because it shows reasonable thought hasn't gone into it.

That aside - what you are suggesting is NASCAR with Australian bodies (which to a degree we already have). You are also proposing Phillip Island at one of the hottest times of the year when temperatures there often creep close to 40 (not a good idea). Similarly with the logistics of going from one circuit to another - that is something that MUST be taken into account for any series.

Concept? Too long a season for a start - we do NOT have the population base here to support a February to December every 2 week type series. If anything like this were started you could start to kiss goodbye to other series running at all. You would be confining them to running in the 'odd weeks' (ie those that don;t clash with V8NASCAR) or clashing with them - which means the audience you are trying to entice to those meetings - either in person or on TV - have to make a choice with the lesser series suffering.

[storyline]

Testing would generally be a good thing BUT ideally should be held the days AFTER a race meeting BUT at a different circuit to the one the race meeting was held at (get involved with the organisation of a circuit or race meeting and you will understand why)

[aussie_f3]

Fair Dinkum Storyline!!!.....I reckon you would boo Santa!!!

The concept sounds good Mac - a bit of tweaking required, but a good concept nonetheless.

[mac]

The dates are purely there to indicate how often I would like to see races run.

And what I am suggesting is not like NASCAR. You have two distinct bodies (or more, depending on if you let more manufacturers in). NASCARs are ridiculous silhouette cars - these cars would still be built on road car platforms (ie. touring cars), and would still look as such. NASCAR teams build their own engines and play with the cars a lot more than what I am proposing. Manufacturers' cars would be different, but inside that they would be the same.

Phillip Island in early December - well we ran at Eastern Creek on the same weekend last year - in a hotter place than PI. And it is only ONE WEEK later than this year's event ...... like that will make a difference!!!

And the season is not Feb to Dec - it is end of March to start of Dec - just over eight months of the year - with nearly four months of nothingness. Have it go to early November then - as long as they race more often.

I'm not saying I have all the answers - I just want to throw up ideas that could have merit.

And I agree with you on testing after race weekends.

[storyline]

(To ease tensions - you asked for comments - it's no good making them sound good just to appease anyone - so yes I am being harsh...)

First race *may* start in Mar but you have two test sessions in Feb - history will show that that period, in Victoria, is extremely hot - thats why I say - Feb at Ph Island is NOT a good idea.

NASCAR or whatever you want to call it - once you start taking away from the teams the ability to build and maintain their own cars (bodies, engines and would you also be including drive trains?) you have a silhoette forumla ala NASCAR. In effect a one make series. The only skill left to the team then is to change wheels and refuel during enduro races.

Also - why test at Phillip Island during Summer? You won't be racing there in summer - so for test circuits, pick circuits that are representative of the tracks following the test - otherwise - why test?

Back to season - 4months of nothingness - well it isn't really by what you propsoe, is it? Testing late Feb (means from the middle of Feb they are getting ready), then Albert Park (when it gets back to that date - sorry - if it gets back to that date) so really the only time off is Dec (but that's Christmas) and Jan - so in reality 8 maybe 9 weeks off. (Why not propose starting in NZ in late Feb instead? There is no logical reason NOT to start over there in February - the weather would be quite good for it.

I would only boo Santa if he were to turn up in a 1970 model Mini Clubman GT without driving lightds attached! He wanted serious comment - so be serious about saying what yuo think of it.

[mac]

Originally Posted by storyline

NASCAR or whatever you want to call it - once you start taking away from the teams the ability to build and maintain their own cars (bodies, engines and would you also be including drive trains?) you have a silhoette forumla ala NASCAR. In effect a one make series. The only skill left to the team then is to change wheels and refuel during enduro races.

It would be a controlled two-make formula (Ford & Holden). And by reducing the input of teams into car development you are reducing the costs of R&D, the cost for more employees, the cost of developing fancy new bits for the car - that is all controlled.

Let me put it this way, are you happy with teams requiring around $1.5 million per car per season? Because with technological freedom comes spending wars.

[storyline]

But is it really controlled? Part of motor racing is not just the driving - it is building the car as well - the skill between say John Smith and Fred Bloggs - one takes his time, builds components properly and they survive but has a crap driver. The other buys generic components off the shelf, they don't always last but his driver IS good and knows how to make and get the best from them. I know who I would rather see race.

As for how much they spend - if this is the overiding factor then split the fields into two classes - but don't punish everyone for the sake of half a dozen teams.

As you can guess - I am not a fan of controlled categories - they don't allow innovation to rise up.

[racer69]

One of the comments over the past few years that has come up from various people (in the series) is the lack of a proper off season.

If they knocked a month off the start and end of the series (start in April, finish early November), you condense the season. I really think 13/14 races are enough (remember that other categories/series want weekends to race where they can get some media exposure, and all of us here don't want clashing events either), and with a condensed calendar it would allow for the races to be closer together without adding more events.

I have for years appealed for a single race format, it's easier for the oh-so-important casual fan (plus it's better for the record books ), and we can have a proper race, no second chances. Any meetings with more than one race (as mac did with the Adelaide event in his proposal), should be treated as separate rounds with separate qualifying sessions.

It was interesting to read in the AA discussion that there was a general dislike from the lot of them about the contrived pitstops. Why then have they been stayed in place since 2001?

I won't get into these controlled components, everyone knows my views (i'll just end up bagging the idea )

[johnh875]

mac, I like your ideas. Re the Nascar references, I’m not familiar with the rules there – are the teams able to construct their own chassis if they want to, or are they compelled to buy one from an official manufacturer? Not to mention that it is obviously a successful model to copy…

I don’t think the racing too frequently argument holds water, look at sprintcars for example, they have several rounds per week and have to travel in between. Perhaps the some of the savings made in car construction could be spent on spare chassis.

Re the dominating of all the dates/weekends, there is plenty of local footy played every weekend while the national comps are running. I think it is something that could be used to advantage by having the state series support the V8s giving them exposure to the casual crowds at the national meeting. One of the problems at the moment is the rounds come at random intervals, a more regular series is easier to follow.

As for the season length, the (nearly) “4 months of nothingness” relates to what the public sees, and is not much different to other sports, although a bit shorter would not hurt, eg drop the last round spot. How much of the year do teams spend “off” at the moment, I bet you it is not from last round until AGP.

Storyline – tell me where it doesn’t get hot in February? Perhaps the pre-season test should be done in Tassie? Where do teams do their pre-season testing now?

I disagree with dropping the shootout for Bathurst though! But yes, definitely no pitstops unless they are necessary. Even a 150km race if some teams want to change tyres and some don’t, then let them.

[storyline]

Sprintcars have a relatively short season though - from memory Nov to March at most - they don;t run in winter at all.

You can't compare football and motor racing - for starters - you are comparing a sport (football) that encompasses participation by all ages (junior schools to retirees) - plus the total numbero f people involved far exceeds anything motor racing could ever wish to see.

The 'other' sports that have off periods, generally have the off period because of climatic reasons - sprintcars, as mentioned above, don't race in winter. Similarly football codes (generally) don't play in summer and cricket doesn't play in winter - in effect they are seasonal sports because of the nature of the sport. Motor racing, however, in Australia tends to be a non-summer sport (apart from speedway). Motor racing in this country tends to shut down from about the 2nd week of Dec until the end of Jan. Those tha DO run tend to run in the evenings to alleviate heat problems (again speedway).

Phillip Island and heat - see previous para - the point is that running motor sport in summer in this country is dangerous because of heat related problems. And testing in Tassie - thoght of that - but even in late Jan, Feb in Tassie - although the temperature isn't physically as high, the heat can be oppressive down there.

[cavvy]

[QUOTE=racer69]
IIt was interesting to read in the AA discussion that there was a general dislike from the lot of them about the contrived pitstops. Why then have they been stayed in place since 2001?

QUOTE]

I've believed it provides passing opportunities not available on the track.

[JABWOA]

Scrap CPS, but (ala CART years ago) introduce smaller fuel tanks and fasters wearing tyres so you MUST stop if you race hard, or you can play the conservation game. Brings more strategy to the racing, but may alienate the "punters" who would understand something that hard... (apparently...) Also, the shorter races, while designed to keep fields together when parity was an issue, also allow for more first lap bingles and passing and excitement by having more first laps. (Particularly since they can't pass each other anymore due to the rules and car/track design.)

[johnh875]

I realise sprintcars have a short season, my point is that teams would adapt, whether by having additional engines, spare shells, a few more staff back at base or whatever.

Likewise with football (or any other sport), issues of conflicting dates is mainly an issue with series local to each round. I don’t think it should be an issue for other national series beyond not having rounds in the same state/city on the same weekend and avoiding the higher profile dates such as Clipsal and Bathurst that attract significant numbers of interstate fans. (Should I compare it to theatre then? Do all other shows throw in the towel because The Producers comes to town?)

If this ends up being V8Nascar and appealing mainly to boofheads who want to see crashes to take things to the , then there would be room for a series that is more production based, or includes more open wheel racing etc.

If you are worried about media coverage then “other” series don’t get any in the mainstream anyway unless there are spectacular crash images, if it is covering the meetings then you can’t be everywhere at once anyway.

I think the benefit of having good local support categories having the exposure to more people, the sport needs to move forward not simply do the same things it has always done.

If you shorten mac’s original season so it does finish in November, then it is no different from this year in length.

Originally Posted by storyline

Phillip Island and heat - see previous para - the point is that running motor sport in summer in this country is dangerous because of heat related problems. And testing in Tassie - thoght of that - but even in late Jan, Feb in Tassie - although the temperature isn't physically as high, the heat can be oppressive down there.

The pre-season testing could be organised so the bulk of the work was done with an early morning start so you could get a decent amount of work done before the heat builds up, or have alternate dates set up (testing doesn’t have to be done on the weekend) if it is hot on the original dates, it is not hot all the time in Victoria, usually in waves. Perhaps the solution is to have no pre-season testing apart from rookies?

JABWOA – spot on!

[storyline]

What do you call 'an early start'? Remeber that, at this point in time, no track that I am aware of can start with race cars on the track before 9am (these are local by-laws btw and EPA regs). But I stand by my previous point - tests should be carried out on tracks that are going to be used in the near future - this gives meaning to the test.

Statistically Victoria IS hot during Jan and Feb and, usually, early March. The non-hot days are wet...

[00 XR8]

Some interesting ideas mac, but are you sure that this is the way you would like our Championship to go regarding the car specs?

Each manufacturer having one designated chassis and engine builder is a good thing how? As storyline has mentioned, where is the engineering challenge in that? To me, a large part of motorsport is about developing new concepts and ideas through research and development, in the search for more speed. If all the chassis were to come from one place, what happens to all the staff at the other teams that will be left with nothing to do?

V8Supercar isn’t really about Holden vs Ford, it is about many different engineering units producing the best equipment they can, so that the best drivers in the country can do battle on Sunday afternoons. What you have suggested is more like putting two one-make formulas together. I realise you are trying to keep the costs down, but personally, I would be horrified if TEGA decided to go down this path in order to do it.

All the money you would have saved the teams on developing bits would be blown away by that 18 round schedule anyway!

The MotoGP points system suggestion is spot on though.

[Mark Webber]

I think the current series is rubbish anyway and has been since 95 but as a motorsport fan I do watch the Taxis time to time so while I don't like your ideas mac :ie turning them more into nascar....even more a yawn fest I do like one the test session idea .

for me I would perfer a revert back to a GrpA type rule with S/Touring aero (ie: controled rear wing and open front splinter and all on 19" wheels) open to drive formats and no turbos with a cap on capacity ie 5lt and cars can only run motors that are sold in the cars with cars only sold in Australia and complited in Australia. with success blast gve to even fields. This would allow Australian teams to bulid Wtcc cars if they wanted to compete on the world stage.
Until we have a true Aussie C/ship with the makes that are sold in this country I'll remain very happy to keep my eye glued to the Aussie's in action o/s in F1/A1/WRC and to a lesser margin champ car (USA racing is boring well more the comm).
The taxi racing is about as far from Aussie racing as you can get both cars are power by USA old tech god a camry is more Australian than a commodre .
the problem is to cars are to equal !!!!!!!! the so called freight train has been going since 95 for god sake LET IT DIE , just for a change don't belive the ch 10/TC hype. so my vision kill off these boring taxis and bring back a real ASTCC which we don't have and mind you can't have as AVESCO holds the rights to the name Australian Touring Car Championship
well I'll go know and sit back and enjoy watching this thread unfold

[Rombles1]

If it is too hot to go testing in February, why not put in a compulsory control air-conditioner - all teams lose the same amount of power then....

[mac]

Originally Posted by storyline

Phillip Island and heat - see previous para - the point is that running motor sport in summer in this country is dangerous because of heat related problems. And testing in Tassie - thoght of that - but even in late Jan, Feb in Tassie - although the temperature isn't physically as high, the heat can be oppressive down there.

When do you think teams currently test ahead of the Australian GP event?

Do you think they fly to England so they can test in winter?

No, they test in February ....... and half of them test in Queensland!!!

When the testing takes place is not an issue.

At least this thread has started some debate.

My point about the specs of the cars would be that while people who take the time to browse 10 Tenths might care about engineering prowess, the casual fan looking for something to watch on a Sunday afternoon couldn't care less.

They want to see fast cars providing spectacular, interesting racing.

Technological foresight might be great for Formula One and sportscars, but is it really that important in touring cars?

Make the cars as fast, slow or technically advanced as you like, but I maintain that whilever there is huge technological freedom you will have spending wars and the same top six at every round.

[Trevor]

For gods sake I grew up a Phillip Island and if it gets to 35c I would be surprised, it would be hotter in Qld and Darwin than at the Island, the only problem being at the Island would be the tourists at that time.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by mac

My point about the specs of the cars would be that while people who take the time to browse 10 Tenths might care about engineering prowess, the casual fan looking for something to watch on a Sunday afternoon couldn't care less.

They want to see fast cars providing spectacular, interesting racing.

Technological foresight might be great for Formula One and sportscars, but is it really that important in touring cars?

Technology is probably not so important, but considering touring cars are supposed to represent the cars we drive on the road, surely that must come into it somewhere.

Casual fans mightn't care how much technology is in the cars, but they still look at a race and think that a Ford is beating a Holden, when in actual fact (under proposed rules in this thread) it'd be nothing more than one body shape infront of another. Would the casual fan really not care about that? They tune in to be entertained by a sporting contest, controlling everything makes it less of one.

The majority of my friends have nothing more than a passing interest in motorsport, when they found out that the cars they drove had nothing to do with the cars they watch race at Bathurst, it did affect what they thought of it. That is of course just small section of the casual fan.