I think Honda have made a big mistake

Yoong Montoya · 17 Jun 2002, 23:08 (Ref:315763)

I think Honda are going with the wrong team. Jordan are doing far better than BAR at the moment and Jordan even came close to winning the championship in 1999 with Mugen Honda engines. BAR have been outperformed by Jordan in every season except 2000, and Giancarlo Fisichella is definitely the best of the 4 'Honda' drivers. Even Takuma Sato has beaten both BARs once or twice. In my opinion, Jordan would do better with full Honda support than BAR.

PoweredByHonda · 18 Jun 2002, 02:10 (Ref:315800)

Jordan doesn't have the budget nor the state of the art facilities BAR has. Also with the Tobacco sponsorship ending in 2006, Honda can step in and just take over BAR wheras EJ will never sell.

Champ69 · 18 Jun 2002, 02:15 (Ref:315803)

I agree 100%.

How good would this team be.

Jordan Honda. (full backing from Honda ala Williams, McLaren)

Drivers 1.Fisi
2.JV

The cars would always be in the to ten in qual and have a very good chance in the races.

Jukebox · 18 Jun 2002, 02:28 (Ref:315806)

Quote:

Originally posted by PoweredByHonda
Also with the Tobacco sponsorship ending in 2006, Honda can step in and just take over BAR wheras EJ will never sell.

I think you have a point there, if we were thinking in the long run as Honda at moment supplies the engines and working closely with both teams to further refine and develope their engines and after accumulating experiences plus in the process further improving in terms of performance on the engine then only they will feature as a full factory team in F1.

It would be a great disgrace for them if they were to enter F1 as the Honda team if the engine dosen't perform. For now they can share the blames with the other two teams.

I assume by 2006, they will have a very competitive engine and takeover BAR.

Champ69 · 18 Jun 2002, 02:28 (Ref:315807)

It was reported that Honda was looking at buying into Jordan in 1999(?) but they did not want Eddie Jordan to play a role in the running of the team so they joined BAR.

Jukebox · 18 Jun 2002, 02:40 (Ref:315809)

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't Honda given a slot to debut in 2000/2001 and was exempted from paying the deposits but in they end they declined?

Then Toyota took that slot.

f1manoz · 18 Jun 2002, 02:42 (Ref:315811)

Honda would be far better off buying out BAR in 2006 when the tobacco legislation is enforced. They have a wonderful facility and Richards knows how to run a race team.

Jordan will most likely be stuck with Cosworth power from next year. EJ will then have to pull his finger out and try and convince another manufacturer to join in.

neilap · 18 Jun 2002, 04:26 (Ref:315834)

Jordan is definately the better team right now. However if Honda is to invest huge amounts into one team I would think they would want to be more actively involved in the decision making process. EJ wants to be the sole decision maker, which is his right. He might never win a championship with this attitude though. I have no doubt that Honda and BAR can and will make the car a championship contender in the next couple of years.

Super Tourer · 18 Jun 2002, 06:58 (Ref:315861)

I agree, we have to look at the big picture. EJ will never be able to match the resources of BAR and Prodrive, which is what BAR will effectively become over the next few years.

Jordan have outperformed BAR so far this year, but that's because Oastler designed a car that was 5 year's out of date, and according to new designer Geoff Willis 'truly awful'.

Prodrive is a massively succesful organisation with strenght in depth, which Jordan simply can't meet. David Richard's has lots of manufacturer experience and will get the job done for Honda, as he has with Subaru (WRC) and Ford (BTCC) in the past.

**Spudgun** · 18 Jun 2002, 08:17 (Ref:315885)

Honda have had much more input in BAR than Jordan. They were assisting the team in chassis design (not sure if they still are with Willis on the scene), so I can see why they would choose BAR over Jordan.

But as mentioned before with Eddie's team structure, Honda have got more chance doing a Renault style takeover from BAR than Jordan. After all, Honda really want their own team and were designing their own car a couple of years ago.

So yes, Jordan are doing better at the moment, but from a business point of view BAR would be the way to go.

Jordi · 18 Jun 2002, 09:24 (Ref:315929)

Harvey Postlethwaite was the designer of the Honda, sadly he died...

The Honda-buying-BAR theory seems the most likely, as they sure would like to compete against Toyota with a Honda team.
But you never know.

**Stephen Green** · 18 Jun 2002, 12:10 (Ref:316037)

Excuse me but didn't EJ sell a slice of Jordan GP to Morgan Grenfell a few years back? EJ has the best interests of the team at heart. Do I hear you say Frank Williams should sell out to BMW for the sake of an engine supply? I don't think so!

calais · 18 Jun 2002, 12:17 (Ref:316043)

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Green
Excuse me but didn't EJ sell a slice of Jordan GP to Morgan Grenfell a few years back? EJ has the best interests of the team at heart. Do I hear you say Frank Williams should sell out to BMW for the sake of an engine supply? I don't think so!

but williams has the luxury of having engine suppliers chasing him, whilst EJ is the one in the desperate situation trying to hold onto his current one

Mr V · 18 Jun 2002, 12:19 (Ref:316045)

Quote:

Originally posted by calais

but williams has the luxury of having engine suppliers chasing him, whilst EJ is the one in the desperate situation trying to hold onto his current one

have to agree with this statement Calais, just goes to show what success does for you!

**Bononi** · 18 Jun 2002, 12:37 (Ref:316063)

Honda will take BAR and Jordan will negotiate a customer engine. Problably Asiatech or Cosworth.

**Stephen Green** · 18 Jun 2002, 13:27 (Ref:316099)

I can't see EJ even considering Asiatech, he's had the Peugeots before...remember!

Super Tourer · 18 Jun 2002, 14:11 (Ref:316123)

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Green
Excuse me but didn't EJ sell a slice of Jordan GP to Morgan Grenfell a few years back? EJ has the best interests of the team at heart. Do I hear you say Frank Williams should sell out to BMW for the sake of an engine supply? I don't think so!

It's a different case. I've read that BMW are about to offer FW a massive deal just to brand the team purely as BMW. They previously paid William's a fee on top of their engine support to be 'title' sponsor and putting their name before Williams in the title itself. This is the unenviable positition that the type of success William's have enjoyed, put's them in.

PoweredByHonda · 18 Jun 2002, 17:05 (Ref:316244)

yeah I read that too in F1 magazine I think. That's what winning Constructors and Drivers championships will do. EJ has only won 3 races and never attained the success that Williams has. That's why he won't be gettin a works deal. When he had a works deal and a good budget2000-2001, he screwed it up, Honda(or any other manufacturer) aren't about to risk more money for EJ to screw around with.

kmchow · 18 Jun 2002, 17:16 (Ref:316251)

Kinda off topic, but do you think Frank Williams would sell his team name to BMW? By keeping it part Williams, Frank can better and easily stay in the F1 history books?

Back to the Honda topic--Barring (NO PUN INTENDED!!) any suprises, Honda will take over BAR in '06. Do you think their cars will improve by then? Usually, Honda can start to show some real results after racing 3-4 years in a motorsport series, they seem to be behind schedule in F1 this time??

Jordi · 18 Jun 2002, 18:31 (Ref:316325)

Quote:

Originally posted by PoweredByHonda
yeah I read that too in F1 magazine I think. That's what winning Constructors and Drivers championships will do. EJ has only won 3 races and never attained the success that Williams has. That's why he won't be gettin a works deal. When he had a works deal and a good budget2000-2001, he screwed it up, Honda(or any other manufacturer) aren't about to risk more money for EJ to screw around with.

Jordan only won three races... and the man that won 66,66% of them was fired by fax....

I don't think his image helps...

kmchow · 18 Jun 2002, 21:15 (Ref:316512)

EJ had a works deal? It was a Mugen-Honda engine though, no a full 100% Honda-Honda engine? Mugen-Honda engine close enough?

**touringlegend** · 18 Jun 2002, 22:01 (Ref:316547)

Yes it was a works Honda engine, BAR has exactly the same engine.

Guy Goddard2 · 18 Jun 2002, 22:32 (Ref:316564)

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Green
I can't see EJ even considering Asiatech, he's had the Peugeots before...remember!

Your right Stephen, EJ would rather put a Ford TDCI engine in the back of the Jordan than go back to a Peugeot.
Are we not over looking the fact that he may go back to Mugen Honda who took him to the great hights a few years ago and if Sato is still their may provide engines at a reduced cost?.

Guy

mac · 19 Jun 2002, 00:22 (Ref:316600)

You are forgetting that this Asiatech is a brand new engine from a completely separate company.

Also, there was a point when Peugeot were considered to have the most powerful engine in F1.

**Stephen Green** · 19 Jun 2002, 07:00 (Ref:316712)

Powerful yes, the heaviest yes, one of the most unreliable yes....

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