2010 BRDC Mclaren Autosport Young Driver Awards - Page 2

cleanup · 23 Sep 2010, 19:22 (Ref:2763683)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kipper

Whilst I see your point; in any assessment it is possible to make allowances for each particpants level of experience and expect a more accomplished performance or more detailed feedback from the more experienced drivers. Also, the assessment also included a drive in a BTCC car, of when both drivers had limited experience of tin top racing.

For sure the tests are varied and allowances can be made for experience with exception of the fitness. I do believe its time to get this award back to where it should be. There are too many British motorsport fans who believe the last few winners (Simms excluded) have been completely wrong and their following years race statistics almost always backs it up. Time to shut up us critics, publish the test results. Lets see who was fittest, who was quick and consistant in the varied race cars and lets see the media videos. There has to be a scoring system, lets see the results, after the announcement of course. Be great to be at the Grosvenor this time and applaud the real winner, leave the politics up the road at Downing Street.

kipper · 23 Sep 2010, 20:19 (Ref:2763712)

Quote:

Originally Posted by cleanup

Time to shut up us critics, publish the test results. Lets see who was fittest, who was quick and consistant in the varied race cars and lets see the media videos. There has to be a scoring system, lets see the results, after the announcement of course.

Whilst I see your point, I would question whether publishing 'the results' would actually settle any debates. The reason for this is that in assessing skills like feedback or media interviews the degree of success is subjective and therefore, it isn't a given that an observer would neccesarily arrive at the same conclusions as the judges. Whilst lap times are directly comparable, there would still be some debate as to how big an allowance should be made for lap times set in adverse weather conditions, for instance.

boyndie · 23 Sep 2010, 20:34 (Ref:2763725)

Quote:

Originally Posted by cleanup

For sure the tests are varied and allowances can be made for experience with exception of the fitness. I do believe its time to get this award back to where it should be. There are too many British motorsport fans who believe the last few winners (Simms excluded) have been completely wrong and their following years race statistics almost always backs it up. Time to shut up us critics, publish the test results. Lets see who was fittest, who was quick and consistant in the varied race cars and lets see the media videos. There has to be a scoring system, lets see the results, after the announcement of course. Be great to be at the Grosvenor this time and applaud the real winner, leave the politics up the road at Downing Street.

I like it!

Not just words & glossy pictures in the press but proper reports supported by hard figures and test results followed by justification of decision process through detailed reasoning.

Not to take away the integrity of the judges, but because I, personally, like to peruse and analyse the data and look deeper into the whys and wherefores.

Can't see why not.

cleanup · 23 Sep 2010, 21:45 (Ref:2763754)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kipper

Whilst I see your point; in any assessment it is possible to make allowances for each particpants level of experience and expect a more accomplished performance or more detailed feedback from the more experienced drivers. Also, the assessment also included a drive in a BTCC car, of when both drivers had limited experience of tin top racing.

Your right however, what you have pointed out is exactly the problem, the tests cant be measured acurately (fitness can and should) and at the end of the day, the decisions are ultimately being made on who the judges think should win. Of all the candidates, there always seems to be a public favourite and usually for good reason, they are the best. Do the fitness test first, iliminate 2, in same weather conditions on new rubber for all,complete a half hour qualifying style test in BTCC or similar (allow for feedback and set up changes), again eliminate bottom 2. Final 2 go on to do similar qualifying style shootout in single seater but at the same time in identical cars. Fastest is winner, if times the same,(unlikely), race engineers vote based on their experience. No media, no judges, just the facts, the best will come through every time. Alas, it will never happen.

boyndie · 24 Sep 2010, 04:45 (Ref:2763817)

Cleanup Quote : “No media, no judges, just the facts, the best will come through every time”

As we are talking about “Autosport” award I think a media ban is a bit stiff and, to be fair, there probably needs to be a bit of clearly defined “judgement” involved although with target criteria and on a points system, limited to say 5 or 10% of an overall mark to allow for an “off day”. To eleviate any ambiguity the rest of the overall mark should be established by a transparent points system for all tests carried out in the final and a points system relating to championship placings in current and previous race season.

Smudgy judging alone could be a bit like saying “well, technically Hamilton has won the F1 championship with the most points but we are going to over rule that and make Webber the F1 champ this time because he’s a nice lad, has been strong early on, he’s the drivers rep and it’s probably his last chance of a major title, and anyway Hamilton won it last time”

In reality times and points tallys are what wins motorsport prizes. These kids grow up through karts & cars knowing nothing else. Whilst no one has access to a crystal ball, trying to “second guess” the best future British champion for the world stage without a fully performance based points system seems flawed.

I am not party to the judging system for BRDC awards perhaps someone can fill me in? Perhaps it is as above or even better, I just don’t know, but maybe that’s the point!

krt917 · 24 Sep 2010, 16:04 (Ref:2764072)

Hi all,

Happy to answer questions/criticisms where I can.

[QUOTE=cleanup;2763177]

Quote:

Originally Posted by krt917

Hi Kevin, surprised by last years winner is an under statement, if Dean was just a little more impressive, it was because of his years of car experience so that criteria cant possibly be a factor. Calado was in only his second year of cars, crazy to compare against Deans 5 or 6 years. I like Dean, he is good and I enjoyed watching him in FR but Calado is by miles, a far better prospect for British motorsport as was Stoneman in his awards year, look at these lads results this year! I really hope all the obvious politics are put to one side and our next true hopeful is put in the spot light, based on the overall picture, the tests being just part of it.

I think what you are talking about is a slightly different type of award. If we were just taking past form into account we wouldn't need the tests. The point is, it's about who performs on the day(s), in as controlled and fair a scenario as possible. In terms of Dean and James, remember that James had more high level karting experience and that some of Dean's career had been spent in less-than-top-budget equipment, which also needs to be taken into account. It's not as clear-cut as you make out. Both are good talents and it may be that James goes further in his career, but that doesn't mean the decision was wrong: it means he underperformed (or Dean over-performed) at the test.

I don't agree with you at all about Stoneman Vs Sims, but that's just my opinion. What I can tell you is that the judges who have been doing it a lot longer than I said that the 2008 decision was one of the easiest ones they've ever had...

krt917 · 24 Sep 2010, 16:12 (Ref:2764079)

Quote:

Originally Posted by boyndie

Unfortunately, even if Blomqvist is "British", being the son of Stig, he's probably got enough money to fund his career for a good while and thus, regardless of ability, will probably be deemed unlikely to win BRDC young driver award. From past awards it seems that, in a semi-charitable way, the award is there primarily to help the under privileged and not, as you would hope, to pick the cream of the crop of future BRITISH champions.

This kind of thing gets me every time! Half the time we get accused of giving the award to drivers who have no money - the 'charit case' argument. The other half we get accused of going with drivers who already have the funding and are going to make it anyway - the 'jumping on the bandwagon' accusation. Neither is accurate. It's who is best over the tests, with previous experience taken into account.

But I suspect I'll have to write that again in a few more posts!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redracer77

I am not sure Nigel Moore has had much competition this season. I think even Kevin Turner could have won races in FPA this year

Much as I appreciate the sentiment, I can guarantee you I could not!

krt917 · 24 Sep 2010, 16:27 (Ref:2764083)

Last post for the moment, I promise.

I read with interest the debate over how the tests are organised and drivers assessed. It is an ongoing development all the time and will be modified depending on track time, cars available, previous experiences etc.

Lap times are of course, one of the main criteria, but remember when the tests are held. The weather is usually inconsistent, making a straight comparison unfair. If only it were that easy! It should be better this year as we'll be able to get more drivers out in the same machinery at the same time, reducing that particular variable.

Remember also that there is usually more than one car to try and that drivers acclimatise at different rates, not necessarily in the order of ultimate pace. And that's before we get into areas of car problems or offs. I could go on, but I think you see what I mean about it being more complicated than it might first appear.

The idea is also to give all six drivers a good experience and something to take away, even if they don't win, so we wouldn't want to eliminate people as it went along.

The issue of transparency has also been discussed and is one of my frustrations, but - ironically - I don't think I should say anything more on that for the moment!

Finally, I notice the odd posts mention politics. Due to the fact that it is held behind closed doors, I can understand the conspiracy theories, but it really isn't like that. All involved really try and select the best driver. Anyone who knows Mark Williams at McLaren or Ian Titchmarsh will probably believe me, but I'm sure plenty won't!

FFfan · 24 Sep 2010, 19:10 (Ref:2764134)

Quote:

Originally Posted by krt917

Last post for the moment, I promise.

I read with interest the debate over how the tests are organised and drivers assessed. It is an ongoing development all the time and will be modified depending on track time, cars available, previous experiences etc.

Lap times are of course, one of the main criteria, but remember when the tests are held. The weather is usually inconsistent, making a straight comparison unfair. If only it were that easy! It should be better this year as we'll be able to get more drivers out in the same machinery at the same time, reducing that particular variable.

Remember also that there is usually more than one car to try and that drivers acclimatise at different rates, not necessarily in the order of ultimate pace. And that's before we get into areas of car problems or offs. I could go on, but I think you see what I mean about it being more complicated than it might first appear.

The idea is also to give all six drivers a good experience and something to take away, even if they don't win, so we wouldn't want to eliminate people as it went along.

The issue of transparency has also been discussed and is one of my frustrations, but - ironically - I don't think I should say anything more on that for the moment!

Finally, I notice the odd posts mention politics. Due to the fact that it is held behind closed doors, I can understand the conspiracy theories, but it really isn't like that. All involved really try and select the best driver. Anyone who knows Mark Williams at McLaren or Ian Titchmarsh will probably believe me, but I'm sure plenty won't!

I have been following this thread with interest and have up until now resisted the urge to add any comments.

I think that giving all six drivers a great experience is the most important criteria about this award. Unfortunately there can only be one winner. Unfortunately only six drivers can be chosen. Someone is always going to be disapointed! This is down to pure economics. But to be able to give six young talents a shot at glory is a fantastic inititiative.

I really don't envy the selection panel their task of selecting the six finalists, let alone picking a winner from the six at the competition. I've been thinking about it myself and I have 9 names in the frame and I wouldn't want to eliminate any of them because I feel they all deserve to be there! It's a cruel world! Good luck Krt & co.

cleanup · 24 Sep 2010, 20:41 (Ref:2764181)

[QUOTE=krt917;2764072]Hi all,

Happy to answer questions/criticisms where I can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cleanup

I think what you are talking about is a slightly different type of award. If we were just taking past form into account we wouldn't need the tests. The point is, it's about who performs on the day(s), in as controlled and fair a scenario as possible. In terms of Dean and James, remember that James had more high level karting experience and that some of Dean's career had been spent in less-than-top-budget equipment, which also needs to be taken into account. It's not as clear-cut as you make out. Both are good talents and it may be that James goes further in his career, but that doesn't mean the decision was wrong: it means he underperformed (or Dean over-performed) at the test.
...

Good to see you answer, as expected, very constructive points. I vaguely remember embarking into a similar thread when the original controversy happened, I remember the same when Wilson was "awarded" but didnt respond at that time. Problem is, me, like hundreds if not thousands, am just a fan of motorsport and am keen to see our British presence at the highest level of single seaters. In my opinion, a test like this is to put our next British star in the right direction for F1, I cant see any merit in offering a golden opportunity of a F1 test to a driver that clearly, based on real facts, is out of their league. We are all kidding ourselves to suggest the experience for the nominees is the incentive. Yes, its great for them, they all deserve the experience but in reality, above all, they all need to win but only one can and that candidate should always be our best future prospect irrespective of under performing or over performing as you say. I sincerely hope that the test is completely reformed, time to get rid of the old fashioned approach, it obviously no longer works. All hush hush behind closed doors, nothing to hide, lets see the results and the justifications of the judges then we can all be excited in following the progress of our next star. This years possible candidates are looking promising. Wouldnt it be something to see the best driver go forward. I remember saying, Lewis Hamilton was very clever to opt out. Forgetting his backing and finance at the time, can you imagine Lewis not winning the award as he made a mistake in a F3 or touring car or was a few press ups short. The current tests can always be justified toward a chosen driver, I am in complete support of the hard work and funding that goes into the award but that aside, change is whats needed.

sceptic · 24 Sep 2010, 21:05 (Ref:2764188)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mach3

Guys, looking down the list there's clearly some great candidates (Harvey, Malvern etc.)

Was just wondering, and perhaps Kevin might be able to say, is FPA on anyone's radar as I do think nigel Moore has a very good future ahead of him...

There is no way in the world that Nigel Moore, who has raced a prototype at Le Mans, and raced in the British GT championship, should be eligible.

alias99 · 25 Sep 2010, 09:12 (Ref:2764311)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redracer77

I am not sure Nigel Moore has had much competition this season. I think even Kevin Turner could have won races in FPA this year

My top 6 -

Jack Harvey – great season and robbed at the end of FBMW
Tom Blomquist – dont agree with this but think he will get picked
Scott Malvern - good season on limited budget
Lewis Williamson – Most wins in Renault and 2nd in the Championship
Dan Cammish - solid 2nd half of season after moving away from the dissapointing Spectrum 012c
Luca Bachetta - my wild card over Nigel Moore

I think Moore has had a bit of competition he is not leading the title and could potentialy drop down to 4th in the championship. Agree with you 6 picks though.

krt917 · 30 Sep 2010, 09:43 (Ref:2767035)

Hi all,

Finalists announced in the mag and on the website:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87078

Let the arguing begin!

Redracer77 · 30 Sep 2010, 09:46 (Ref:2767037)

how can Nigel Moore get in ahead of Dan what a load of rubbish

Peter Cammish · 30 Sep 2010, 11:33 (Ref:2767082)

Chris, it is not a suprise and perhaps a couple of choices look diffcult to justify to me personally but not to the parents , friends and supporters of those who did make the final so good luck to them all.

I gaurantee one thing since 1977 I have bought more copies of Autosport than Stig Blomquist but who said life was fair!!!

Good Luck to Scott Malvern, a hard and committed racer, well done Dominic as well enjoy the moment you deserve it without people like us there would be only motorsport for the elite and then it would have no relevance whatsoever, go win it!!!! PC

Redracer77 · 30 Sep 2010, 11:39 (Ref:2767085)

Kevin,

Can you explain why the rules state that you cant reach top class F3 level to get in the award but you can race an LMP2 car at Le Mans, one of the 4 biggest races in the world and still be allowed into the awards?

FFfan · 30 Sep 2010, 12:28 (Ref:2767109)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Cammish

Chris, it is not a suprise and perhaps a couple of choices look diffcult to justify to me personally but not to the parents , friends and supporters of those who did make the final so good luck to them all.

I gaurantee one thing since 1977 I have bought more copies of Autosport than Stig Blomquist but who said life was fair!!!

Good Luck to Scott Malvern, a hard and committed racer, well done Dominic as well enjoy the moment you deserve it without people like us there would be only motorsport for the elite and then it would have no relevance whatsoever, go win it!!!! PC

Thanks Peter. I won't pretend it hasn't been difficult this year. I'm delighted for Scott but also feel for Dan as I know how hard he's tried this year. Maybe he'll win the Festival. He has as good a chance as anyone. I hope you get something good sorted for him for next year.

DM

Redracer77 · 30 Sep 2010, 20:48 (Ref:2767431)

Maybe the fact that F2 had a logo in Autosport as part of the awards article means that an FPA driver was always going to get in like a few years ago when the shootout driver always got a place.

I really cant see how you can pick a driver who has completed in the top class at one of the top 4 biggest races in the world - Le Mans 24 Hours when the regulations state that you cant be in Championship Class F3 or above....

FFmygale · 30 Sep 2010, 21:07 (Ref:2767438)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redracer77

Maybe the fact that F2 had a logo in Autosport as part of the awards article means that an FPA driver was always going to get in like a few years ago when the shootout driver always got a place.

I really cant see how you can pick a driver who has completed in the top class at one of the top 4 biggest races in the world - Le Mans 24 Hours when the regulations state that you cant be in Championship Class F3 or above....

I must admit - whilst I have not really followed Dan Cammish's career so am ambivalent on whether he should or should not be in the award, and I know Redracer could potentially be biased in his comment on this, as an un-connected person I honestly think Chris has a point. You can compete in the Le Mans 24 hours and still be eligible??????????? surely someone has missed a page in the regulations. Since when has the Le mans 24 hours been of a lower standard than Championship F3? ........ Madness.

kipper · 30 Sep 2010, 21:22 (Ref:2767450)

With regards to Nigel Moore's inclusion, having raced at Le Mans; I think the stipulation relating to the driver having to have competed at a level lower than Championship Class F3 only relates to the season in which they are nominated. For example, Dean Smith had raced at that level in 2008, but was competing at that level last year. With that in mind, a case could be made that Formula Palmer Audi and Ginetta G50s (Moore's 2010 programmes) are within the requisite parameters.

That said, I was surprised to see him nominated.

SS Supporter · 30 Sep 2010, 21:45 (Ref:2767467)

Whilst I see the validity of the argument as to whether or not Moore should still be eligible , I must say I think this is a straight 2 horse race between Harvey and Blomquist .

Redracer77 · 30 Sep 2010, 21:50 (Ref:2767471)

I am biased in this post and I sure am not hiding from that. I guess my disappointment is not just for Dan but for all Dan’s family and JTR as I know what they as a family have sacrificed just to get to the end of the season. To be fair to Dan he didnt think he would get in. For what money Dan had available this season it wouldn’t have been enough to get him a season in Kens Formula Ford Academy.....So credit to JTR for giving him a great car and believing in him. 3rd in the championship after not doing pre race testing at 4 meetings out of 10 is pretty good in my book.

I guess it depends on what the criteria of the awards are? As they seem to change each year. If you are looking for drivers who have excelled under tough financial constraints then Scott and Dan get in with ease. If you are looking for drivers who have just excelled without taking into account budget or history then the 6 picked is possibly correct. But I thought the “judges” looked more into it than that.

Dan has had some rotten luck. At Knockhill he was robbed of race 2 & 3 after Antti Burri put him in a roll when contact with Josh hill dislodged his shocker cover and he couldn’t see the next corner and ploughed into dan....just the wrong place at the wrong time. Then at Castle Combe Dan was not set up in the Mygale due to his tall size due to the fact he had only just changed chassis and that caused him to cook his brakes and DNF. Now these niggles would have been sorted if he had joined JTR from the start after the disappointing Spectum, but that’s racing and money stopped that. I could write all night about the shambles at Rockingham after dominating testing, the unreliable Dunlop rubber meant we couldn’t get near our testing pace in the races. That left a gap to Scott and Scott that was always going to be tough to get back.

Hopefully Scott can go and show the Renault boys how to drive the F2 car and get the Autosport money for 2011 as it has been one of the most competitive seasons in Formula Ford history. Something which I cant say about FPA..

If Scott doesnt win then hopefully Jack will but he doesnt need the money and it will make a big difference to what scott can pull together for 2011.

cleanup · 30 Sep 2010, 21:57 (Ref:2767475)

Quote:

Originally Posted by krt917

Hi all,

Finalists announced in the mag and on the website:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87078

Let the arguing begin!

I see there is already some different opinions, good stuff but in reality, if this years award is anything like last years, the winner has probably already been chosen. I am sure the person making the final decision last year was also in charge of this years Australian next super model competition with one big difference, no one dealt with the cock up on that night. Good luck to all of them.

krt917 · 1 Oct 2010, 08:32 (Ref:2767637)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redracer77

Kevin,

Can you explain why the rules state that you cant reach top class F3 level to get in the award but you can race an LMP2 car at Le Mans, one of the 4 biggest races in the world and still be allowed into the awards?

Yes, I can! As Kipper states, you can't have competed above British F3 National class level that season. So, Nigel was not eligible when he raced at Le Mans, but is this season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redracer77

Maybe the fact that F2 had a logo in Autosport as part of the awards article means that an FPA driver was always going to get in like a few years ago when the shootout driver always got a place.

No, that's not the case. The F2 logo is there because F2 cars are part of the award. Moore is there because he was deemed good enough. The FPA Shootout was a different thing altogether - it was an upfront 'the sixth person will be the shootout winner' and in neither year was the winner an FPA regular from that season.

Chris, I understand your frustration, but I've spoken to Dan and even he reckons he didn't do enough. Of course, we take driver's situations into account, but Dan's results just haven't quite been good enough, as I am sure he would agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cleanup

If this years award is anything like last years, the winner has probably already been chosen.

Not quite sure how many times I can say this politely, but of course the winner hasn't already been chosen! Why would McLaren, Autosport, the BRDC and the various judges waste all that time and money (a lot in both cases) on the tests if they didn't mean anything?! It just doesn't make sense.

Perhaps a little background on the judges would help. Jamie Green, Oliver Turvey and Mark Williams are pretty busy during the year with international motorsport (!) so come at the awards with no preconceived ideas - they will judge what they see.

Ian Titchmarsh and Marcus Pye are long-term judges, know how it all works, and are keen to find the next British talent. Anyone who knows Ian will know how meticulous he is: award conversations are never short when he is around!

I'd like to think I was pretty objective too, as shown by the fact that non-Formula Ford drivers have won it for the last two years despite the fact I love the category.

I'm genuinely looking forward to seeing how they all perform this year, and hope they all enjoy it too.

Peter Cammish · 1 Oct 2010, 10:40 (Ref:2767677)

Kevin, thanks for the post , loads of good guys missed out , the judges are entitled to an opinion it is after all a competition, as far as we are concerend the matter is closed and 2011 is the target. PC

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