FIA F2 2011 discussion

[FastFreddie]

Eccles - where did you find out that Palmer makes more than a million a year profit from F2?? I can't see how that's even possible given the grid sizes last year, which weren't as high as 2009, and F2's pretty cheap anyway. I doubt anyone makes that sort of money from running championships - except Bernie maybe!

Mach3 - you were wrong about the price, which didn't go up, but you're right about the calendar - following the WTCC around is OK to a point, but the 2011 tracks are a big step up from Valencia, Oschersleben, Brno etc.

Go_For_Pole - no TV deal? Give them a chance - they've only just left the WTCC package and I doubt this sort of thing gets sorted overnight.

There's a lot of bull$**** on this thread! I personally like F2 and think it's a decent championship that offers something different to F3, Renault 3.5 and GP3. You should read this inteview with Dean Stoneman, who's known for telling it like it is and he has more right to judge the merits of F2 than anyone on this forum: http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/32651.html.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by FastFreddie

You should read this inteview with Dean Stoneman, who's known for telling it like it is and he has more right to judge the merits of F2 than anyone on this forum: http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/32651.html.

Thanks for that, you certainly raise some pointed questions but there might well be posters on here that are perfectly able or qualified to comment. There are for other formulas that we discuss Freddie

[ivanalesi]

I think they will be with Open GT and they're shown on Motors TV.

[FastFreddie]

You're quite right Chunterer - there are some valid points on here too and didn't mean to offend everyone

[Mak]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Presumably still not enough staff to run it properly, no chance for a driver to learn about working with high-line engineers and still under 3,000 km for the season

If now there is no F1 test etc. it will be worse than this year, if that is possible

Not heard to many complaint about the engineering staff and would say they are as good as in any other comparable formula. What do you mean by high line engineers?

Best value for money formula. Under 3000km thats double GP3 at half the cost and faster bigger cars!

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by FastFreddie

You're quite right Chunterer - there are some valid points on here too and didn't mean to offend everyone

No worries, I wasn't being 'funny' don't worry.

[Eccles]

Originally Posted by FastFreddie

Eccles - where did you find out that Palmer makes more than a million a year profit from F2?? I can't see how that's even possible given the grid sizes last year, which weren't as high as 2009, and F2's pretty cheap anyway. I doubt anyone makes that sort of money from running championships - except Bernie maybe!

Hello Fast Freddie - or should I call you "MSV employee" perhaps?

Anyway, F2 has not submitted its accounts yet but even with a grid size of 20 cars @£275,000, that is an income of £5.5 million quid per year.

Even if operating costs were high along with the overall cost of building the cars spread over 3 years depreciation, they would have to go some to spend over £4.5 million quid in a year.

A company should aim to run with an operating profit somewhere between 10 - 20% of turnover so 1 million quid profit is not difficult to justify at all.

Simples!

[Tin top racer]

Why is the amount of money made important? Surely it’s the quality of the series that matters? To me initial impressions aren’t too bad; prices have gone down this year, they have an improved and more ambitious calendar, the series is cheaper than GP3 and the cars are faster with a lot more driving time, and it’s a hell of a lot cheaper than a season in GP2!

To me it does what it says on the tin, it’s a good value for money series with a lot of driving time which last year provided some good racing.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Tin top racer

Why is the amount of money made important? Surely it’s the quality of the series that matters? To me initial impressions aren’t too bad; prices have gone down this year, they have an improved and more ambitious calendar, the series is cheaper than GP3 and the cars are faster with a lot more driving time, and it’s a hell of a lot cheaper than a season in GP2!

To me it does what it says on the tin, it’s a good value for money series with a lot of driving time which last year provided some good racing.

Your first point makes sense about the money maling side, any series that can get the cash rolling is doing well!!

However the last bit is not so valid, it doesn't matter how cheap the series is if it can't attract the right talent and doesn't really offer a cast iron career progression afterwards. The good thing is that it's cheaper than GP3 which for such a rubbish series is ridiculously expensive and is simply exploiting drivers who see it as a must to be on the F1 calender imo.

GP2 is more expensive but then it's a cut above F2 in every way.

You tend to get what you pay for these days (GP3/Qualcast/Husqvarna excepted).

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Tin top racer

the series is cheaper than GP3 and the cars are faster with a lot more driving time

Fractionally more tracktime does not equal more driving time. No good having track time if you haven't got the tyre life to exploit it as someone knows very well.

In any case F2 offers about 25% driving time of F3, so it really is pants on that score whatever.

[Tin top racer]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Fractionally more tracktime does not equal more driving time. No good having track time if you haven't got the tyre life to exploit it as someone knows very well.

In any case F2 offers about 25% driving time of F3, so it really is pants on that score whatever.

Peebee – Sorry, I was comparing F2 to GP3 race weekends, where they have about half as much running, probably as they’re limited by being on the F1 bill. I don’t know how much testing F3 has outside race meetings – I assume this is what you’re referring to when you say F2 has 25% of its tracktime?

By my rough reckoning I make track time for race weekends as follows. I’ve based this on British F3 – not sure how much running time the Euros have:

F3: Quali - 30mins, Races - 30mins, 20 mins, 40 mins, Total weekend = 120 mins
10 rounds = 1200 mins season.

GP3: practice - 30 mins, Quali - 30 mins, Races - 2x 30mins, total weekend= 120 mins
8 rounds = 960 mins season.

F2 (for next year): Practice 2x45 mins, Quali 2x30mins, Races 2x40 mins, total weekend = 230 mins
8 rounds = 1840 mins season.

Presume F2 has some testing outside of race meetings as well? And does anyone know roughly what a season costs in a top F3 team?

Chunterer- Hopefully next year’s drivers will be more of the calibre of 2009. Time will tell

[JohnMiller]

Great scheme. Ignore the F3 free practice but include the F2 sessions!

[Tin top racer]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

Great scheme. Ignore the F3 free practice but include the F2 sessions!

Brit F3 doesn't actually have specified practice, they generally have testing on the Friday, but not always and as such times etc. vary.

Take out practice and F2 = 1120 mins, GP3 = 720 mins.
Now shy of F3 but for the money pretty favourable I think (can someone give an estimate of a season in F3 with a decent team please).

[Deemun]

Originally Posted by Tin top racer

Brit F3 doesn't actually have specified practice, they generally have testing on the Friday, but not always and as such times etc. vary.

Take out practice and F2 = 1120 mins, GP3 = 720 mins.
Now shy of F3 but for the money pretty favourable I think (can someone give an estimate of a season in F3 with a decent team please).

British F3 International class with one of the leading teams anywhere between £580k & £750k plus UK VAT plus accident damage. I believe T-Sport were charging around £300k for National class last season.

Not entirely sure about rates for other domestic series such as German, Italian or Spanish AKA European Open and it looks like the European Championship is now under serious threat of not continuing.

[Tin top racer]

Originally Posted by Deemun

British F3 International class with one of the leading teams anywhere between £580k & £750k plus UK VAT plus accident damage. I believe T-Sport were charging around £300k for National class last season.

Not entirely sure about rates for other domestic series such as German, Italian or Spanish AKA European Open and it looks like the European Championship is now under serious threat of not continuing.

Ok so if I take the lowest figure of 580k, I make that:

Brit F3- 580k for 1200 mins= £483 a minute

F2- 225k for 1120 mins= £201 a minute

So a fair bit less than half the price of Brit F3 with the lowest estimate.


Stoneman didn’t exactly embarrass himself in the Williams today, fifth fastest with a 1:41:522, I think that's pretty close to the Hulkenberg's qualifying time.

[ptclaus98]

It seems like a good series, but the driver pool took a serious nosedive after 2009. I hope it recovers, because it did have a promising start with some good drivers. Reminds me of Atlantics had it continued to evolve.

[ivanalesi]

Originally Posted by Deemun

Not entirely sure about rates for other domestic series such as German, Italian or Spanish AKA European Open and it looks like the European Championship is now under serious threat of not continuing.

300-350k EU for all. You can do it for 250 w/o testing, as well as 450 with lots of testing.
The Italian has some good car developments, fins, winglets and so on, it's a good value for money championship!

[Eccles]

Nice report on F2 website saying that jolyon is going to be testing for GP2 this week and that GP2 is the natural progression for drivers from F2.

Well at least it clears that up then, F2 isnt a feeder series for F1 at all!!! Perhaps they need to call it Formula 2.5 from now on

[Mak]

Originally Posted by Eccles

Nice report on F2 website saying that jolyon is going to be testing for GP2 this week and that GP2 is the natural progression for drivers from F2.

Well at least it clears that up then, F2 isnt a feeder series for F1 at all!!! Perhaps they need to call it Formula 2.5 from now on

Some drivers have gone the other way as well. All swings and round abouts. GP2 is the obvious choise for driver heading to F1. If you (or your dad) don't have a spare +£1mill though then you just have to look at F2 to keep you in the picture. Its not as good but is less than a quarter the value of GP2, there's the question.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Mak

Some drivers have gone the other way as well. All swings and round abouts. GP2 is the obvious choise for driver heading to F1. If you (or your dad) don't have a spare +£1mill though then you just have to look at F2 to keep you in the picture. Its not as good but is less than a quarter the value of GP2, there's the question.

Well, (I think you're being ironic, but just in case) no, you would surely try and do FR 3.5 if you didn't have the silly money for GP2.

F2 would be the only option if you couldn't afford a ride in F3 or maybe GPLawnmower.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Well, (I think you're being ironic, but just in case) no, you would surely try and do FR 3.5 if you didn't have the silly money for GP2.

F2 would be the only option if you couldn't afford a ride in F3 or maybe GPLawnmower.

Someone please tell me they changed the muffler for next year.

[NaBUru38]

By the way, "Palmer has decided to bring the curtain down on the [Formula Palmer Audi], fearing a new fleet of racers would push budgets well beyond those envisioned in the series’ original ethos. [...] Palmer says that his full focus is now on the revived Formula Two championship."

[Mak]

Originally Posted by Mak

Some drivers have gone the other way as well. All swings and round abouts. GP2 is the obvious choise for driver heading to F1. If you (or your dad) don't have a spare +£1mill though then you just have to look at F2 to keep you in the picture. Its not as good but is less than a quarter the value of GP2, there's the question.

WSbyR is a very good alternative to GP2(especially as the actual seat time in a season is more), but you still need 650 - 700k which could still be a bit heavy in the pocket for many. F2 could be the only option for many. and not a bad option!

[bella]

hang on, is that seriously all you need for fr3.5?? for some reason considering the gp2 prices are going up i had it a lot closer to a million euros.

[Mak]

Originally Posted by bella

hang on, is that seriously all you need for fr3.5?? for some reason considering the gp2 prices are going up i had it a lot closer to a million euros.

Hey Bella, I know a few drivers trying to do F2 next year, but sounds like you can sponsor them in WS by R as you think its cheap.. lol