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Old 19 Jul 2017, 15:16 (Ref:3752814)   #176
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By 2018 they will be considered a manufacturer because they'll have produced a road car. That's why this is apparently the last year of the Alpine branding exercise. The new A110 start late this year in Europe, so they'll no longer be allowed in LMP2, so should then be eligible to sticker engineer an LMP1.
I forgot about ol' frog eyes being greenlit
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 09:36 (Ref:3754650)   #177
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So Porsche would appear to be gone. Once again long distance sportscar racing lurches into a crisis probably of its own making, but we've all been here before haven't we?

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Originally Posted by MotorSport Magazine, May 1976
Jantke of Porsche, and Neerpasch at BMW, know that this season could be grim, but they are sure Alpine-Renault, Lancia, Alfa Romeo and Jaguar will all be out to play in 1977's Silhouette series, leaving the sports cars, which are of little interest to the car makers, to die and long distance racing to make a partial return to the days when it meant something to win.
Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

GTEs have manufacturer interest, they're essentially silhouettes, and there are a lot of cars out there. There are a lot of series, maybe they make sportscar races something worth winning.

Somehow though the prototypes keep coming back in one shape or form or another don't they? They certainly did in the 1970s and fed into what we still think of as a golden era in the 80s.

I can't help thinking that while this is probably a nail in the coffin of the far-flung worldwide WEC it may also catalyse the ACO to step back from the FIA relationship and do something to keep prototypes at the forefront of Le Mans, and the halo effect of this will support some form of series for these cars (be it IMSA, ELMS etc).

Porsche will be missed, as will the spectacular hybrids if they indeed all vanish, but I can't help feeling a level of interest about what sort of creativity will come out of various circles to fill what feels like it's going to be a bit of a vacuum.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 12:12 (Ref:3754670)   #178
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Seems that the enjoyment of the WEC can't go on, shame for the LMP1 championship, it was going so well till first Audi left, then Porsche
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 12:41 (Ref:3754680)   #179
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The WEC is not going away folks. They'll be around for sure. LMP2 and GTE is still very strong.

LMP1 is up to Toyota now because if they go, then I think you will have takers to buy up Perrins, Ginnettas, BRs, and CLMs. Get 5-6 LMP1 NON hybrids, plus the LMP2's then you could have a good battle on your hands. I don't think the LMP1 non hybrids will be that much quicker than the LMP2 cars.

GTE..I hope they rename it to GTLM in WEC too by the way, will still be a world championship. Plus the exclusive qualifying races as some races will be cool.

I wonder if some events will be reduced to 4 hour races, and its at these 4 hour races which is where the GTLM qualifying sprint races will be held.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 12:46 (Ref:3754687)   #180
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Does anyone have a written notice that the WEC would lose the world championship status immediately after Porsche withdraws to start 2018? We've heard 'it's rumored' 'we think' and 'They require at least 2 manufacturers' but nothing that links back to articles written by anyone with research and notations of what the rules says and what the FIA would do. And now that GTE gets world champion status would pulling it from LMP1 to leave the 'undercard' the series seems exceptionally foolish looking. But it is the FIA, so anything is possible.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 12:55 (Ref:3754691)   #181
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Maybe they'll just all go to ELMS
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 13:15 (Ref:3754697)   #182
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Well this sucks.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 13:41 (Ref:3754708)   #183
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Maybe they'll just all go to ELMS
I wonder if a couple of LMP2 teams might consider this since the entire LMP2 ELMS field got invited to Le Mans anyway this year.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 13:57 (Ref:3754715)   #184
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Does anyone have a written notice that the WEC would lose the world championship status immediately after Porsche withdraws to start 2018? We've heard 'it's rumored' 'we think' and 'They require at least 2 manufacturers' but nothing that links back to articles written by anyone with research and notations of what the rules says and what the FIA would do. And now that GTE gets world champion status would pulling it from LMP1 to leave the 'undercard' the series seems exceptionally foolish looking. But it is the FIA, so anything is possible.
This is said to be in the contact between FIA and ACO, so I doubt it is public.

FIA International Sporting Code is a public document and available on fia.com. It at least used to have some of the World status requirements but I guess the contract overrides them.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 15:04 (Ref:3754736)   #185
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The quick and ugly answer is to drop the H class requirement for manufacturers and bribe someone into racing a Ligier Peugeot or Dallara Lamborghini or whatever for a cheap shot at Le Mans.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 15:09 (Ref:3754739)   #186
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Yes, maybe if there wasn't a requirement to have hybrid we would see more manufacturers
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 15:34 (Ref:3754744)   #187
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The quick and ugly answer is to drop the H class requirement for manufacturers and bribe someone into racing a Ligier Peugeot or Dallara Lamborghini or whatever for a cheap shot at Le Mans.
Hmmm...so taking a P2 chassis and putting something more powerful than the P2 Gibson into it? Maybe massage the bodywork some?

Nah, it'd never work.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 15:47 (Ref:3754747)   #188
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New LMP1 class?

lmp2 chassis and aero regs
(manufacturers can build their own tubs without oreca/ligier/dallara/ril..nevermind involvment)

bespoke or road derivated engine up to 650hp (or decrese lmp2 to 550hp)

2MJ 2009 F1 style kers and no mandatory rules (just use hybrid as you wish, no more max energy per lap and other green nazis bullsh****)


Manufacturers can enter racing program spending 2/10 of toyota and porsche recent budgets and more important can sell their cars to customers.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 16:09 (Ref:3754757)   #189
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I'm expecting the Toyotas to be slowed down massively.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 16:14 (Ref:3754760)   #190
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I'm expecting the Toyotas to be slowed down massively.
something like this?




Anyway, to me toyota will keep the lmp1 program for 2018 at least.
In mid-2000 audi won a pair of le mans and a lot of ALMS championships without any real competitor.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 17:09 (Ref:3754782)   #191
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The WEC is not going away folks. They'll be around for sure. LMP2 and GTE is still very strong.

LMP1 is up to Toyota now because if they go, then I think you will have takers to buy up Perrins, Ginnettas, BRs, and CLMs. Get 5-6 LMP1 NON hybrids, plus the LMP2's then you could have a good battle on your hands. I don't think the LMP1 non hybrids will be that much quicker than the LMP2 cars.
Perhaps a battle between privateer P1s and the top P2s over a long race may provide us with some very good racing. Its pretty much what was expected of P900/P675 back in the day.

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Does anyone have a written notice that the WEC would lose the world championship status immediately after Porsche withdraws to start 2018? We've heard 'it's rumored' 'we think' and 'They require at least 2 manufacturers' but nothing that links back to articles written by anyone with research and notations of what the rules says and what the FIA would do. And now that GTE gets world champion status would pulling it from LMP1 to leave the 'undercard' the series seems exceptionally foolish looking. But it is the FIA, so anything is possible.
Are these two required manufacturers specifically for LMP1? They have works teams in GTE-Pro, which now offers a world championship title in the WEC. Might be enough for keeping the world championship status.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 17:14 (Ref:3754786)   #192
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Maybe I'm just not seeing the fuss, but if we go back to just privateer entries and no hybrids....is it that big a deal? Would we really stop watching? I'd love to see 6-10 P1-L cars fighting for the win. It wouldn't have awesome hybrids, but it'd still be awesome.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 17:40 (Ref:3754791)   #193
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And I also go back and say that even if the now ancient Audi R8 was being driven on modern tires and with a factory driver and some aero development, it could be easily as fast as the LMP1H cars were at LM this year.

The Audi R10 almost got there, so did the R15 and the air restrictor equipped R18 variants. The first gen 908s got there and so could ultimately the 908HY4.

We do have to remember that a lot of the rules in the current prototype classes were to slow down the rate that cars were getting faster as much as anything.

Of course, the ACO painted themselves in a box IMO by catering to manufacturers and going for the huge hybrid systems too quickly. It seems IMO they didn't appreciate that they'd do whatever it took or how much it'd cost to exploit the regs withing their original 3 season time frame.

ROI has always been marginal in prototypes vs GT racing. The Audi Sport and Porsche GT3 programs actually make them a fair bit of money. The Audi R8 LMP900 customer car program probably didn't make Audi Sport a ton of money, and we know that the Porsche RS Spyder program didn't for Porsche, either.

It is what it is now. All we can hope for is that there's a huge privateer field at LM and that the 2020 rules can make amends to some degree. Complication there is does the ACO bend over for Peugeot, or stay the course?

I don't think that backing down on the tech stuff will be a big turn off, especially if the field is healthier as a result.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 17:41 (Ref:3754793)   #194
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Maybe I'm just not seeing the fuss, but if we go back to just privateer entries and no hybrids....is it that big a deal? Would we really stop watching? I'd love to see 6-10 P1-L cars fighting for the win. It wouldn't have awesome hybrids, but it'd still be awesome.
^This. This, like many other "eras" in sportscars, is now gone. Bring on the next. If you watched before, you'll watch again. I'll stick with what I have been watching, which is Le Mans only.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 17:57 (Ref:3754796)   #195
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Maybe I'm just not seeing the fuss, but if we go back to just privateer entries and no hybrids....is it that big a deal? Would we really stop watching? I'd love to see 6-10 P1-L cars fighting for the win. It wouldn't have awesome hybrids, but it'd still be awesome.
We (the ardent fans) wouldn't ... the question is at exactly what point does pragmatism finally win out over manufacturer investment for the ACO. The noises we heard following Audi's withdrawal bemoaned their lack of "activation" almost as much as the racing team.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 18:00 (Ref:3754798)   #196
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And I also go back and say that even if the now ancient Audi R8 was being driven on modern tires and with a factory driver and some aero development, it could be easily as fast as the LMP1H cars were at LM this year.
I don't understand the constant need to relate everything to a car close to 20 years old?? That's NOT coming back to the track outside of historics so maybe try using some relevant comparisons like modern chassis and maybe an LMP2 with improved engine, tires, drivers, etc. You really aren't ever adding to anything but the comment count. We get that you think the R8 is the greatest car ever on track but its time has come and gone. Please for the love of go catch up.

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Old 27 Jul 2017, 18:21 (Ref:3754808)   #197
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Don't like it, don't read it. That's what the ignore button is for.

And ever think that "playing catch up" is why we're here? I've never heard of a team spending $200 million on a LMP1 program until this set of rules happened. And it's basically bankrupted the sport.

Audi are gone, Porsche are almost certainly gone, and Toyota will probably follow in short order. This is the "now" that we're looking at.

You gotta face facts. LMP900 was sustainable, first gen LMP1 was sustainable. Not this post 2009 trend of three year plans, and often introducing significant rules changes every year.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 19:20 (Ref:3754839)   #198
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Maybe I'm just not seeing the fuss, but if we go back to just privateer entries and no hybrids....is it that big a deal? Would we really stop watching? I'd love to see 6-10 P1-L cars fighting for the win. It wouldn't have awesome hybrids, but it'd still be awesome.
WEC just isn't sustainable on privateer dollars. Whether this is a major concern depends on how much you enjoy seeing races at Fuji and Mexico City and season long factory GTE competition outside of IMSA.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 19:31 (Ref:3754849)   #199
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WEC just isn't sustainable on privateer dollars. Whether this is a major concern depends on how much you enjoy seeing races at Fuji and Mexico City and season long factory GTE competition outside of IMSA.
The current format isn't sustainable no, but I don't particularly enjoy Bahrain, Shanghai or COTA. I don't even like Fuji - Suzuka is better (doesn't solve the logistics obviously). Mexico City is cool, but that's having problems with or without manufacturers.

The US has got its own series and hasn't really gotten into WEC. I'd love Sebring or something but that's not happening. So if this resulted in some overseas races being dropped I wouldn't be that fussed. But that's my personal preference. Factory GTE? Kinda cool, but I also love GTD and GT3, and that's without factories. So that wouldn't upset me either.

I see why people wouldn't agree with this, but to me the alternative still seems pretty cool.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 19:41 (Ref:3754853)   #200
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The current format isn't sustainable no, but I don't particularly enjoy Bahrain, Shanghai or COTA. I don't even like Fuji - Suzuka is better (doesn't solve the logistics obviously). Mexico City is cool, but that's having problems with or without manufacturers.

The US has got its own series and hasn't really gotten into WEC. I'd love Sebring or something but that's not happening. So if this resulted in some overseas races being dropped I wouldn't be that fussed. But that's my personal preference. Factory GTE? Kinda cool, but I also love GTD and GT3, and that's without factories. So that wouldn't upset me either.

I see why people wouldn't agree with this, but to me the alternative still seems pretty cool.
I don't want to see GT3's, they're popular everywhere else, but I don't think the WEC needs them. Maybe souped up GT3's as GTE I can see. As for Suzuka, it's owned by Honda. When they enter the wec, maybe we can enjoy that track with these cars. But for now it's Toyota owned Fuji. It's not the best layout but always puts on great races. Suzuka is a nice track, but the races there aren't filled with action. It's a tough track to pass on but maybe LMP's and GTE's could change that with the traffic. Super GT races are pretty decent there.
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