IMSA DPi Discussion

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The ACO isn't allowing rebranding of the Gibson engine. I'm not to sure they'd like that happening in IMSA either. That's beginning to blur the lines between DPi and LMP2, and the ACO is wanting the LMP2s to stay stock.

Does the ACO own the rights to the engine though? Doubt there's anything they could do about Gibson selling an engine deal to a DPi builder as that is outside their rules. Course how does that engine fit in the IMSA DPi rules? They may have something in their about changing that engine to a model of the DPi manufacturer to be considered as a DPi.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I always found it amusing that no matter what Dyson ran, they managed to make it fail. Lola and Porsche could run trouble free at Le Mans, but not manage 2 hours in a Dyson. It was very odd.

I get yelled at years back on here by one of their drivers because I asked why in the hell would you 'Dysonize' the RS Spyder? They had an interview with Chris about taking them back to the Dyson shop and taking the cars to pieces and rebuilding them with the Dyson touch. It's a freaking Porsche racer, what were you going to do to improve it?? Having heard stories, I could understand that with the Lolas; Pickett Racing took theirs apart and rebuilt it from scratch but that was a Lola-Aston Martin aka VERY expensive kit-car.

[chernaudi]

We also have to remember that Audi Sport offered to sell a couple of R8s to Dyson back around 2003 or so. Dyson didn't bite because he'd have to abide by everything that Audi Sport would tell him to do with the cars. He'd have no control over the cars beyond basic set up changes.

Granted, a lot of that stuff has to do with homologation stuff that the factory teams and several customer car builders tried to push though as a form of IP protection to keep teams from screwing with their cars. Even when their factory teams did well, car makers didn't want private teams to embarrass the car maker with bad performances. Let alone, the factory team be bettered by a privateer team that got more out of a car than the factory ever did. Those last two sentences came from the Nov. 1998 issue of Car and Driver with an article about Le Mans that year.

Champion didn't mind that because they knew that they'd start winning races when Audi Sport cut back full factory operations with Joest (which is why Joest, in addition to helping out the Bentley program, only ran one car in 2003), or when Audi allowed Champion to run a car the exact same spec as the factory Joest cars (and they came close a couple of times in '01 and '02 each season of pulling an upset on Joest).

Rob Dyson has always reminded me of being a hot rodder. He wants things to be his car with his touch, for better or worse.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Does the ACO own the rights to the engine though? Doubt there's anything they could do about Gibson selling an engine deal to a DPi builder as that is outside their rules. Course how does that engine fit in the IMSA DPi rules? They may have something in their about changing that engine to a model of the DPi manufacturer to be considered as a DPi.

The engine was designed specifically for the LMP2 market though, so there might be some licensing involved with that. If they'd just bought an engine elsewhere than ok, but Gibson was specifically asked for this. It might be that they simply aren't allowed to use that engine in anything but LMP2s.

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I get yelled at years back on here by one of their drivers because I asked why in the hell would you 'Dysonize' the RS Spyder? They had an interview with Chris about taking them back to the Dyson shop and taking the cars to pieces and rebuilding them with the Dyson touch. It's a freaking Porsche racer, what were you going to do to improve it?? Having heard stories, I could understand that with the Lolas; Pickett Racing took theirs apart and rebuilt it from scratch but that was a Lola-Aston Martin aka VERY expensive kit-car.

I remember talking to Chris Dyson at Daytona in 2006. He was pretty vocal about how much he hated the DPs at the time too.

[ATLFalconsFAN]

Did this just become official? It had been discussed before I think:

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/vi...der-of-season/

[chernaudi]

I think it was brought up in the IMSA 2018 thread (though it also effects this season).

Granted, it's not like none of us saw it coming unless someone lived under a rock when it came to IMSA this year--that's how horrid the Riley has been most of the season. After they podium'd at Daytona, things have basically gone down hill with VFR and their Riley, and a change had to be made.

The base Riley is junk. At least the Mazda version can be updated by Multimatic and Joest because DPIs are still under draft homolgation (should be read as not truly homolgated as of yet).

[Maelochs]

I am pretty psyched to see what those two can do with a Ligier (Vander Zande and Goosens.) I have to fugure VFL won't mess it up too much .. .there must be a ton of data on how to run the thing.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

It's a freaking Porsche racer, what were you going to do to improve it??

Ask Penske. Or anyone that raced a 935 or 962, if you're going to word it that way.

[Maelochs]

Dyson was pretty good a radically modifying 962s back in the day.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Ask Penske. Or anyone that raced a 935 or 962, if you're going to word it that way.

Oh yes, cause that compares with a modern prototype so equivalently?? Or were you just trying to parse words that should have been understood, but I guess I'll use my little kids words.

It's a modern racer, tightly controlled chassis built to a set of tight and particular rules. But my mistake maybe I'll only use small words so pedantic fools don't think they are so superior.

[Damian Baldi]

I don't know if VFR has chosen the Ligier or if it was his only option. However, I think it will be night and day for them. At ELSM the Liger has prove to be gentle with the Dunlop tyres while the Oreca produce more degradation. But at IMSA with the Continental tyre and bumpy tracks I think the Oreca and Ligier are at the same level.

[chernaudi]

Homolgation requirements were looser in the IMSA GTP days, and the cars were less advanced. You didn't have as much interference from factories or car builders who now see "hot-rodding" a car as meddling and interference.

As I mentioned, factory teams and car design/manufacturing firms are responsible for a lot of the homolgation rules for IP reasons and they don't want people screwing with "their" creations. Which that's technically a correct statement since all of that stuff is the copyright basically of whoever designed it or commissioned it.

Even if someone allows it, aside from learning how to do maintenance/repairs, taking apart a modern race car to make it faster is sort of an exercise in futility. Everything on the cars is there for a reason. And the maths and science people will their slide rules and computer sims will argue that a hot-rodder rarely can improve upon perfection.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Oh yes, cause that compares with a modern prototype so equivalently?? Or were you just trying to parse words that should have been understood, but I guess I'll use my little kids words.

It's a modern racer, tightly controlled chassis built to a set of tight and particular rules. But my mistake maybe I'll only use small words so pedantic fools don't think they are so superior.

The 962 was a modern racer and a tightly controlled chassis built to a set of tight and particular rules thanks. That platform only won Le Mans 7 times straight in factory form and forms the basis for all prototype race cars to this day, why would people dare to mess with it and go win Daytona? Obviously you're superior to such stone age engineering though.

Not that this argument even matters, because the most important thing that was already alluded to is that the most successful team to run the RS Spyder completely rebuilt and significantly modified their cars, and Dyson was never going to win races with straight off the factory floor customer cars.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I get yelled at years back on here by one of their drivers because I asked why in the hell would you 'Dysonize' the RS Spyder? They had an interview with Chris about taking them back to the Dyson shop and taking the cars to pieces and rebuilding them with the Dyson touch. It's a freaking Porsche racer, what were you going to do to improve it?? Having heard stories, I could understand that with the Lolas; Pickett Racing took theirs apart and rebuilt it from scratch but that was a Lola-Aston Martin aka VERY expensive kit-car.

That was Guy Smith in case you forgot, buddy. We haven't.

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[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

That was Guy Smith in case you forgot, buddy. We haven't.

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Oh no, I hadn't. Didn't want to anger him by name again

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Not that this argument even matters, because the most important thing that was already alluded to is that the most successful team to run the RS Spyder completely rebuilt and significantly modified their cars, and Dyson was never going to win races with straight off the factory floor customer cars.

Ummm, what???? Penske ran them as Porsche tuned them, he was the factory team. They didn't disassemble the cars and then waste 5 min on the ALMS broadcast to tell how they had to tweak and tune them themselves. If you believe he was spending ANY of his cash on those cars and their tuning, I've got a bridge to sell you.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Ask Penske. Or anyone that raced a 935 or 962, if you're going to word it that way.

Porsche Motorsport changed around the RS Spyder. They used to cater to almost exclusively to privateers but started pulling operations in house then and afterward. When they ran the hybrid 911 at PLM, the biggest deal was not that it was a hybrid, but it was a works team. I'd hadn't seen that until then.

Penske was a customer team... a very well run one, but Porsche did all of the development. They didn't even have ECUs meaning you had to have a Porsche engineer to start your car.

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[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

If you believe he was spending ANY of his cash on those cars and their tuning, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Hey, they really did sell a bridge once.

[mariantic]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The ACO isn't allowing rebranding of the Gibson engine. I'm not to sure they'd like that happening in IMSA either. That's beginning to blur the lines between DPi and LMP2, and the ACO is wanting the LMP2s to stay stock.

Do you have recent evidence of this? See this story from May 2015
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/n...2-spec-engine/

“Being able to put different names on the engines can help teams to find partners and that’s where we are heading,” Beaumesnil told Endurance-Info. “We have already seen in the past and this was no problem.”

Was this rescinded?

Mariantic

[Akrapovic]

They've mentioned it on MWM a few times, that OEMs aren't allowed to brand the new LMP2s. You *might* get away with a non-OEM badge (depending on how French you are), but that's why Alpine branding will have to end in 2018, as they'll finally have a car again.

Whether or not the ACO want to flip flop on their own rules or not, who knows. Again, depends how French you are really. Or how difficult the ACO want to be about things.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Actually, don't know if joest is an engine tuner too, but unlikely they could throw off >600Nm from that engine only because they wish
reliability issues is AER trademark, not to mention.

anyway, I still can't figure out one thing:
mazda struggles with AER tuned 2.0 L4 engines for almost 10 years, since lola dayson lmp2 early days if am not wrong, why have never they tried to knock cosworth door?
oreca too is a small engine tuner if memory helps

Oreca is the current tuner/supplier for all the LMPC (Chevy, in the US) and LMP3 (Nissan, worldwide) engines, they would most likely be able to support a DPi project including engine supplies if the check is written to the right amount by a willing manufacturer.

That will not happen in (early) 2018 as they'll be focussing on the Acura-Penske program first and foremost. 2019 wouldn't be any problem.

[chernaudi]

I don't think that Joest is an engine tuner themselves. All the time they were a Porsche team they had an engineer from Porsche to help them with engine tuning. Let alone when they were with Audi Audi Sport handled all of that.

But we've seen smaller engine firms (those without factory ties) struggle. Even with all the excellent work they did with their V10s, Judd struggled to make the Lotus Indy Car engine work, and they had problems with their LMP1 V8s at the same time. Though I think that has a lot more to do with Judd trying to do multiple programs at once and having never designed or tuned a turbocharged engine before.

AER though have often struggled with reliability problems, though ironically turbo engines is about all they've made in recent years. And I've heard that Dyson Racing does or did have at least some stakeholding in the company at one stage, though I've never verified that.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Penske was a customer team... a very well run one, but Porsche did all of the development. They didn't even have ECUs meaning you had to have a Porsche engineer to start your car.

Penske doesn't just roll a car out of a crate and race it, even in a spec series. There were little details on those cars never seen on any other RS Spyders. The engine thing applies even to teams that completely design and build their own chassis if they're leasing engines.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Penske doesn't just roll a car out of a crate and race it, even in a spec series. There were little details on those cars never seen on any other RS Spyders. The engine thing applies even to teams that completely design and build their own chassis if they're leasing engines.

I'm as big of a Penske fan as you will find and agree that they reengineer car to the extent they can. In the case of the RS Spyder those details you are refering to were done by Porsche. At least that is what I was told by an engineer that ran a RS Spyder for another team, so that's what I'm going off of.

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[Maelochs]

Advanced Engine Research Limited
Company directors and board members:

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CHRISTOPHER CHARLES DYSON (current)
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