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Old 22 Jan 2013, 13:46 (Ref:3192734)   #51
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And never forget the value of a Verbal Contract to a GOOD lawyer...
My wife reckons the standard lawyers toast after dinner is to "The Home Made Will".
Leave legalities to lawyers.
Though it's amazing how often internet fora sprout a 'legal request' thread!
This thread is sweetness and light. The Piston Heads one could get, 'interesting'! Especially if some party's legal team get to read it.
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 13:51 (Ref:3192735)   #52
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Joe,Zef, and Jason were invited by me to drive the car so it was my risk.It's the people who ask to drive the cars and then knowing the deal try to get out of it **** you off.

Have stopped doing it .My cheque book and their brilliance don't mix.
Surprising how many of these budding superstars can't drive.


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Old 22 Jan 2013, 14:16 (Ref:3192745)   #53
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This thread is sweetness and light. The Piston Heads one could get, 'interesting'! Especially if some party's legal team get to read it.
I must get round to reading it. Piston Heads became, to me at any rate, more and more like the motoring/internet version of the Jeremy Kyle show.
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 14:16 (Ref:3192746)   #54
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Agreed about Pistonheads, considering they are owned by Haymarket, you would think soeone would setp in

Very poor admin if you ask me, there is some shaeful stuff on there
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 14:17 (Ref:3192747)   #55
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This thread is sweetness and light. The Piston Heads one could get, 'interesting'! Especially if some party's legal team get to read it.
It has alright. If that does actually happen, it will be a very sad day indeed.
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 14:21 (Ref:3192751)   #56
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Very poor admin if you ask me, there is some shaeful stuff on there
Individuals should be free to voice their opinions and that's all that's happening on pistonheads. If opinions are to be censored... then we have a very sinister situation indeed.
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 15:24 (Ref:3192762)   #57
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As John said . . .

However I'd have happily rebuilt the engine had it gone pop. (and I was mightily relieved it didn't when it jumped out of overdrive flat out)

You don't want to see my bodywork skills put to practice.

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You've pedalled for JR in the past - were you happy to cover the costs of any damage that occurred?

Did you have a split agreement between mech and bodywork?
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 16:06 (Ref:3192774)   #58
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[QUOTE=PeterMorley;3192395]

I'd be interested to know what the damage was, 50 grand wouldn't rebuild a 4-cam 356 engine so I doubt there was a great deal of damage.

As for insurance it is very difficult to insure race engines, something to do with people who "unfortunately" blew up their engines just before they needed a rebuild.




Believe me, i was at Davids during the strip down and i saw and handled the parts. How many of you know these engines and just what it costs to rebuild ?? Finding a replacement engine would cost you in excess of £350,000.

This was a perfect, unmolested engine.
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 16:10 (Ref:3192775)   #59
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I very good read, well done Andrew.
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 16:15 (Ref:3192777)   #60
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Believe me, i was at Davids during the strip down and i saw and handled the parts. How many of you know these engines and just what it costs to rebuild ?? Finding a replacement engine would cost you in excess of £350,000.

This was a perfect, unmolested engine.
OK... and David was aware that if this thing did destroy itself, Mark Hales wouldn't have had the wherewithal to source £350K to replace it ?
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 16:16 (Ref:3192779)   #61
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As John said . . .

However I'd have happily rebuilt the engine had it gone pop. (and I was mightily relieved it didn't when it jumped out of overdrive flat out)
What about JR's costs for loss of use meantime? - I'm joking of course

Sounds like the dice rolled your way that day and the other way for Mark that day at Cadwell - the cusp may not have involved many rpm either way.

I borrow and loan myself and have twice lost out my way (and thankfully never the other) - once to an ageing so called gentleman racer (who gains far more adulation on here than he deserves) and once to my son.....for different reasons neither had any intention of getting involved in sorting it all out and in both cases anyway I saw it as my problem.
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 16:22 (Ref:3192782)   #62
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This thread is sweetness and light. The Piston Heads one could get, 'interesting'! Especially if some party's legal team get to read it.
Maybe I've missed something. Is that in response to Chris Harris' article, or on some other thread?
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 16:25 (Ref:3192784)   #63
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Believe me, i was at Davids during the strip down and i saw and handled the parts. How many of you know these engines and just what it costs to rebuild ?? Finding a replacement engine would cost you in excess of £350,000.

This was a perfect, unmolested engine.
Graham

This has been asked elsewhere to no avail but you may be best placed to answer....

Forget for a moment the issues around how it happened .....It appears agreed by everyone the engine let go at 8200 rpm and yet Wyer details they make full power at 8400, limited to 8700/8800 as then will detonate themselves at 9200rpm

Would you have expected 8200rpm to be survivable for a perfect unmolested engine as some say?

Last edited by relativtortoise; 22 Jan 2013 at 16:33.
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 16:59 (Ref:3192791)   #64
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Maybe I've missed something. Is that in response to Chris Harris' article, or on some other thread?
There's a lengthy thread on the website pistonheads.com. I'd be happy to post a link to it here, however I believe to do so would be in violation of 10-10ths rules [unless a mod allows us permission]. Otherwise if you go to Pistonheads, it's fairly ease to find.
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 17:17 (Ref:3192803)   #65
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There's a lengthy thread on the website pistonheads.com. I'd be happy to post a link to it here, however I believe to do so would be in violation of 10-10ths rules [unless a mod allows us permission]. Otherwise if you go to Pistonheads, it's fairly ease to find.
Best not to post links to other fora but you could try Google and scroll down a little bit

As has been said, this is sweetness and light compared with the dark side, let's keep it that way.
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 17:19 (Ref:3192804)   #66
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Thank you. Found it.
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 17:42 (Ref:3192817)   #67
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Graham

This has been asked elsewhere to no avail but you may be best placed to answer....

Forget for a moment the issues around how it happened .....It appears agreed by everyone the engine let go at 8200 rpm and yet Wyer details they make full power at 8400, limited to 8700/8800 as then will detonate themselves at 9200rpm

Would you have expected 8200rpm to be survivable for a perfect unmolested engine as some say?
If i had a perfect engine, but also wary of the fact that there was no need to push it to its limit because of its cost, i,ll be damned if i would take it to 8,200 for a magazine test. Despite being specifically told several times not to take it to more than 7,000, and knowing that the gear selection on 917s has to be done with a certain "caution", BUZZING it to 8,200 plus is always going to be a disaster. Siffert, despite a commanding 5 lap lead, did just that at LeMans in 1970.

Maximum torque for a 4494cc engine is around 6,600 and maximum power is, as you say, at 8,400. Increasing the capacity to 4,907cc produced maximum torque at around 6,400 and increased its power from 565 to 600bhp. Fabulous strong engines and happily run for 24 hours but .........
buzzing one to over 8,200 plus will lead to mega bills, to 9,400 .... forget it.

I have to say that to do a back to back comparison between a 917 and a 512 should not have been done at Cadwell Park.
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 18:04 (Ref:3192825)   #68
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buzzing one to over 8,200 plus will lead to mega bills, .
The repair bill itself (with which the judge confuses Euros and GBP's) actually seems to me to be remarkably good value if it was as damaged as you say - when the previous owner of my Sapphire stuffed it in bottom instead of third at Lydden he damaged the gearbox and turbo .....however having JGE separately strip, check and rebuild the engine was £18k
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 18:25 (Ref:3192831)   #69
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I guess the sympathy for Mark is now matching up to the sympathy the judge showed for David, we are all human I guess....

I have read Marks excellent prose since Fast Lane magazine so I can't be considered unbiased but if I had read the court conclusions as a neutral I would definitely gone against the defendant. Then again it's the judges summation and who knows if he has been swayed by a respected old F1 driver against a journalist.

Getting away from that, it is very surprising that considering this was actually a business venture by both parties both were left with arguing about gentlemen's agreements. I could understand that would be the sort of thing if you leant it to a friend, but this seems to be money making on both parties and then a loophole suddenly appeared. On one side it then became a matter or principle, on the other a financial one, hence why the costs are now stupid and once again only the legal profession has prospered.

Piper's image has been tarnished and Hales bank balance has been plundered.

Mind you it is not just the lawyers have profited, the soap opera that is the modern day "datanews" has also. Hence why we are all getting involved and interested over this.

Andy

PS Pistonheads is just like the Daily Mail. Something they would hate to admit to
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 20:43 (Ref:3192874)   #70
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People are not comparing apples and apples.
This car is a replica made out of old bits that was useful for hiring out and getting entry into various fancy Porsche functions.
Nothing to do with the works cars apart from it looks the same.
It would have gone for five times the sum if it had a continuous history.
Mark Hales was extremely unlucky as he was covered for all damage apart from mechanical.
It's a mess and Mark will have to cough up.
That piston head stuff was laughable with people who have never been in the position of driving or owning expensive race cars adding their two pence worth.
You have one tough pipe smoking bloke at one end of this discussion and he is not about to bend.
Be surprised if any reasonable sum is raised.Talks cheap!
I asked Andrew Frankel to drive for me once and he did a great job.Known him and his brother for years ,extremely good blokes but Andrew is probably hamstrung on what he can say in any piece on this unfortunate situation.
Why do people want to know what peoples arrangements are ?Assume it is just being nosey.
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 21:37 (Ref:3192893)   #71
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Mark Hales was extremely unlucky as he was covered for all damage apart from mechanical.
Or was he unlucky in being the first person that's had to face an owner that's refused to take responsibility for his car ? I mean do you know if its possible to get insurance cover to indemnify you in an instance such as this ? They could be facing a £350K bill for the repair of an inherently unreliable racing engine with no fail safes. In my experience, underwriters charge prohibitive premiums in such cases.

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That piston head stuff was laughable with people who have never been in the position of driving or owning expensive race cars adding their two pence worth.
It's no more than a plethora of opinions... yes some are comical... but others have provided decent insight into the situation and raised some important questions.

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Why do people want to know what peoples arrangements are ?Assume it is just being nosey.
For some it's pure curiosity/interest... as is the case with 99% of the posts on 10-10ths. For others, there's genuine concern that this case has set a precedence with far reaching consequences for motor racing... specifically the historic racing fraternity... and it has the potential to directly affect them.
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 21:49 (Ref:3192902)   #72
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We should probably leave the debate about other forums. They have their style we have ours. People can make their choices!

As others have expressed, I feel for MH. It strikes me that he was just an unlucky driver. I always thought the convention was it was the 'teams' or owners risk. Although I do like John ruston's asking and being invited distinction.
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 22:40 (Ref:3192928)   #73
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It's a sad time for motor sport, but we are where we are. Whether we agree with the decision or not, it can't be changed outside of the court of appeal and must surely set a precedent. As the value of racing cars soars past paintings, maybe it's sensible that everyone's mind is concentrated on "what if" scenarios in future.

I dont know whether this will affect magazine tests, but it will make the drivers very much more careful and I think that is a good thing. A salutary reminder to us all who are invited to drive a friend's pride and joy - our cars may only be worth a fraction of the 917, but they probably represent a greater percentage of our personal wealth - and emotional capital!
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Old 22 Jan 2013, 23:59 (Ref:3192956)   #74
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I think the whole problem here and hindsight is easy, is the test was to find out (I assume) which was the best racing car, a bit like putting two old past champion boxers into the ring someone is gonna get hurt. I would say if it was the competition element that had crept in both cars could individually be tested and no harm would have been done but as they were trying to discover which was best they obviously were both pushed hard. I remember having several track tests done by magazine drivers for my old ModProd championship and IMHO it was Art Marcus of CC & C who said it for me, he told the guys I am not gonna push the cars to the limit, I dont want anyone timing me I can glean all the info I need for a good article and comparison by driving at 8/10ths so rest assured your cars will be OK and they were. I assume in the Ferrari vs 917 test the stop watches were running and I think this may have added to the problem.
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Old 23 Jan 2013, 01:10 (Ref:3192969)   #75
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If you want to do this type of thing and feel secure -insure

If you can't afford it-don't bother.Don't whine when it all goes tits up

It has no far reaching effects on historic motorsport as the bend it ,mend it stuff has been in place for years.

There are no precedences or any other stuff as its just a question of people being responsible for their own actions.

The lack of this thought process in today's society is not suprising

Why should the owners take the rap or is it they can afford it stance. B S.

Nobody driving in Historics is going anywhere in motor racing terms so it's no big deal

Fifteen years ago the top drivers were Hadfield,Pearson,Stetton...

Same today so no progress ,changes or promotion.

Histrorics are the bottom of the pile and I feel those involved should know how it works.

Things like the Piper situation have been going on for years but they seldom get to court.

Who wanted to drive Alta at Silverstone?
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