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22 Jan 2013, 13:46 (Ref:3192734) | #51 | ||
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And never forget the value of a Verbal Contract to a GOOD lawyer...
My wife reckons the standard lawyers toast after dinner is to "The Home Made Will". Leave legalities to lawyers. Though it's amazing how often internet fora sprout a 'legal request' thread! This thread is sweetness and light. The Piston Heads one could get, 'interesting'! Especially if some party's legal team get to read it. |
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Tim Yorath Ecurie Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch Fan of "the sacred monster Christophe Bouchut"... |
22 Jan 2013, 13:51 (Ref:3192735) | #52 | |||
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Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
22 Jan 2013, 14:16 (Ref:3192745) | #53 | ||
#WhatAreHashTags
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I must get round to reading it. Piston Heads became, to me at any rate, more and more like the motoring/internet version of the Jeremy Kyle show.
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John Smith Clerk of the Course and MSA Steward Race Director for 360MRC |
22 Jan 2013, 14:16 (Ref:3192746) | #54 | ||
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Agreed about Pistonheads, considering they are owned by Haymarket, you would think soeone would setp in
Very poor admin if you ask me, there is some shaeful stuff on there |
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22 Jan 2013, 14:17 (Ref:3192747) | #55 | |
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22 Jan 2013, 14:21 (Ref:3192751) | #56 | |
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22 Jan 2013, 15:24 (Ref:3192762) | #57 | |
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As John said . . .
However I'd have happily rebuilt the engine had it gone pop. (and I was mightily relieved it didn't when it jumped out of overdrive flat out) You don't want to see my bodywork skills put to practice. |
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22 Jan 2013, 16:06 (Ref:3192774) | #58 | ||
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[QUOTE=PeterMorley;3192395]
I'd be interested to know what the damage was, 50 grand wouldn't rebuild a 4-cam 356 engine so I doubt there was a great deal of damage. As for insurance it is very difficult to insure race engines, something to do with people who "unfortunately" blew up their engines just before they needed a rebuild. Believe me, i was at Davids during the strip down and i saw and handled the parts. How many of you know these engines and just what it costs to rebuild ?? Finding a replacement engine would cost you in excess of £350,000. This was a perfect, unmolested engine. |
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"If you would do great things, first set your sails to the wind" |
22 Jan 2013, 16:10 (Ref:3192775) | #59 | ||
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I very good read, well done Andrew.
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Comments made are personal and don't reflect any club or Motorsport UK policy. "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein |
22 Jan 2013, 16:15 (Ref:3192777) | #60 | |
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OK... and David was aware that if this thing did destroy itself, Mark Hales wouldn't have had the wherewithal to source £350K to replace it ?
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22 Jan 2013, 16:16 (Ref:3192779) | #61 | ||
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Sounds like the dice rolled your way that day and the other way for Mark that day at Cadwell - the cusp may not have involved many rpm either way. I borrow and loan myself and have twice lost out my way (and thankfully never the other) - once to an ageing so called gentleman racer (who gains far more adulation on here than he deserves) and once to my son.....for different reasons neither had any intention of getting involved in sorting it all out and in both cases anyway I saw it as my problem. |
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22 Jan 2013, 16:22 (Ref:3192782) | #62 | ||
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2022: Indy 500, IoM TT, LM24HRS :D |
22 Jan 2013, 16:25 (Ref:3192784) | #63 | ||
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This has been asked elsewhere to no avail but you may be best placed to answer.... Forget for a moment the issues around how it happened .....It appears agreed by everyone the engine let go at 8200 rpm and yet Wyer details they make full power at 8400, limited to 8700/8800 as then will detonate themselves at 9200rpm Would you have expected 8200rpm to be survivable for a perfect unmolested engine as some say? Last edited by relativtortoise; 22 Jan 2013 at 16:33. |
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22 Jan 2013, 16:59 (Ref:3192791) | #64 | |
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There's a lengthy thread on the website pistonheads.com. I'd be happy to post a link to it here, however I believe to do so would be in violation of 10-10ths rules [unless a mod allows us permission]. Otherwise if you go to Pistonheads, it's fairly ease to find.
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22 Jan 2013, 17:17 (Ref:3192803) | #65 | |||
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As has been said, this is sweetness and light compared with the dark side, let's keep it that way. |
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22 Jan 2013, 17:19 (Ref:3192804) | #66 | ||
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Thank you. Found it.
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2022: Indy 500, IoM TT, LM24HRS :D |
22 Jan 2013, 17:42 (Ref:3192817) | #67 | |||
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Quote:
Maximum torque for a 4494cc engine is around 6,600 and maximum power is, as you say, at 8,400. Increasing the capacity to 4,907cc produced maximum torque at around 6,400 and increased its power from 565 to 600bhp. Fabulous strong engines and happily run for 24 hours but ......... buzzing one to over 8,200 plus will lead to mega bills, to 9,400 .... forget it. I have to say that to do a back to back comparison between a 917 and a 512 should not have been done at Cadwell Park. |
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"If you would do great things, first set your sails to the wind" |
22 Jan 2013, 18:04 (Ref:3192825) | #68 | |
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The repair bill itself (with which the judge confuses Euros and GBP's) actually seems to me to be remarkably good value if it was as damaged as you say - when the previous owner of my Sapphire stuffed it in bottom instead of third at Lydden he damaged the gearbox and turbo .....however having JGE separately strip, check and rebuild the engine was £18k
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22 Jan 2013, 18:25 (Ref:3192831) | #69 | |
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I guess the sympathy for Mark is now matching up to the sympathy the judge showed for David, we are all human I guess....
I have read Marks excellent prose since Fast Lane magazine so I can't be considered unbiased but if I had read the court conclusions as a neutral I would definitely gone against the defendant. Then again it's the judges summation and who knows if he has been swayed by a respected old F1 driver against a journalist. Getting away from that, it is very surprising that considering this was actually a business venture by both parties both were left with arguing about gentlemen's agreements. I could understand that would be the sort of thing if you leant it to a friend, but this seems to be money making on both parties and then a loophole suddenly appeared. On one side it then became a matter or principle, on the other a financial one, hence why the costs are now stupid and once again only the legal profession has prospered. Piper's image has been tarnished and Hales bank balance has been plundered. Mind you it is not just the lawyers have profited, the soap opera that is the modern day "datanews" has also. Hence why we are all getting involved and interested over this. Andy PS Pistonheads is just like the Daily Mail. Something they would hate to admit to |
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22 Jan 2013, 20:43 (Ref:3192874) | #70 | ||
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People are not comparing apples and apples.
This car is a replica made out of old bits that was useful for hiring out and getting entry into various fancy Porsche functions. Nothing to do with the works cars apart from it looks the same. It would have gone for five times the sum if it had a continuous history. Mark Hales was extremely unlucky as he was covered for all damage apart from mechanical. It's a mess and Mark will have to cough up. That piston head stuff was laughable with people who have never been in the position of driving or owning expensive race cars adding their two pence worth. You have one tough pipe smoking bloke at one end of this discussion and he is not about to bend. Be surprised if any reasonable sum is raised.Talks cheap! I asked Andrew Frankel to drive for me once and he did a great job.Known him and his brother for years ,extremely good blokes but Andrew is probably hamstrung on what he can say in any piece on this unfortunate situation. Why do people want to know what peoples arrangements are ?Assume it is just being nosey. |
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john ruston |
22 Jan 2013, 21:37 (Ref:3192893) | #71 | |||
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For some it's pure curiosity/interest... as is the case with 99% of the posts on 10-10ths. For others, there's genuine concern that this case has set a precedence with far reaching consequences for motor racing... specifically the historic racing fraternity... and it has the potential to directly affect them. |
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22 Jan 2013, 21:49 (Ref:3192902) | #72 | ||
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We should probably leave the debate about other forums. They have their style we have ours. People can make their choices!
As others have expressed, I feel for MH. It strikes me that he was just an unlucky driver. I always thought the convention was it was the 'teams' or owners risk. Although I do like John ruston's asking and being invited distinction. |
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Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously. |
22 Jan 2013, 22:40 (Ref:3192928) | #73 | ||
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It's a sad time for motor sport, but we are where we are. Whether we agree with the decision or not, it can't be changed outside of the court of appeal and must surely set a precedent. As the value of racing cars soars past paintings, maybe it's sensible that everyone's mind is concentrated on "what if" scenarios in future.
I dont know whether this will affect magazine tests, but it will make the drivers very much more careful and I think that is a good thing. A salutary reminder to us all who are invited to drive a friend's pride and joy - our cars may only be worth a fraction of the 917, but they probably represent a greater percentage of our personal wealth - and emotional capital! |
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Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq! |
22 Jan 2013, 23:59 (Ref:3192956) | #74 | ||
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I think the whole problem here and hindsight is easy, is the test was to find out (I assume) which was the best racing car, a bit like putting two old past champion boxers into the ring someone is gonna get hurt. I would say if it was the competition element that had crept in both cars could individually be tested and no harm would have been done but as they were trying to discover which was best they obviously were both pushed hard. I remember having several track tests done by magazine drivers for my old ModProd championship and IMHO it was Art Marcus of CC & C who said it for me, he told the guys I am not gonna push the cars to the limit, I dont want anyone timing me I can glean all the info I need for a good article and comparison by driving at 8/10ths so rest assured your cars will be OK and they were. I assume in the Ferrari vs 917 test the stop watches were running and I think this may have added to the problem.
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You can't polish a turd but you sure can sprinkle it with glitter! |
23 Jan 2013, 01:10 (Ref:3192969) | #75 | ||
The Scarlet Pimpernel
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If you want to do this type of thing and feel secure -insure
If you can't afford it-don't bother.Don't whine when it all goes tits up It has no far reaching effects on historic motorsport as the bend it ,mend it stuff has been in place for years. There are no precedences or any other stuff as its just a question of people being responsible for their own actions. The lack of this thought process in today's society is not suprising Why should the owners take the rap or is it they can afford it stance. B S. Nobody driving in Historics is going anywhere in motor racing terms so it's no big deal Fifteen years ago the top drivers were Hadfield,Pearson,Stetton... Same today so no progress ,changes or promotion. Histrorics are the bottom of the pile and I feel those involved should know how it works. Things like the Piper situation have been going on for years but they seldom get to court. Who wanted to drive Alta at Silverstone? |
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john ruston |
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