[BTCC] BTCC Rounds 22/23/24 Rockingham 2017

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

RWD wins 5 out of 6 races, and people actually sit here and say a FWD car is third in the championship, therefore there's no problems.

If FWD had won 5 out of 6 races, and there was a RWD third in the championship, would there be a problem then too?

My own allegiances lie with Honda, and I would love to see Shedden take another title. It is looking increasingly unlikely, but rather then feel there must be something wrong, I prefer to step back and consider that if one type of car (drivetrain, engine type, bodystyle) appeared dominant is it a temporary perception or is there something else happening?

The upper reaches of the table appear to be RWD heavy, but that is probably as much down to driver packages as the cars themselves.

The time to assess whether the current regulation set (and associated BoP works) is heading into the last round at Brands.
Last year we had 8 title contenders, and there have been multiple in the past too. If we have a FWD vs FWD fight, RWD vs RWD, or a combination, then that is fine with me. What I would not want to see is one team having that much ease that they are able use team orders to pre-determine the title.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Autosport are saying that Cook is the first driver to get banned since Phil Bennett, but didn't Pyper also get banned for one meeting in 2002?

Yes, but that was in Class B / Production, which as far as TOCA and related media are concerned never existed.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

If FWD had won 5 out of 6 races, and there was a RWD third in the championship, would there be a problem then too?

Yeah, it potentially would be a problem. But I did simplify my point a bit. The winning X number of races in Y events is only part of the issue. The running in team formation, dominance on what is considered a balanced, or FWD circuit, and the complete ineffectiveness of the ballast system is the rest of the story. Literally the only thing that stops the Subaru is the reverse grid. It isn't one issue, it's all of these together are creating an issue.

Here's another way of looking at it- 16 RWD wins, 8 FWD. Literally double. Rockingham was apparently a circuit that was balanced, or prefered FWD. RWD won all 3 races, claimed pole, and won with full ballast. Since Oulton Park, every FWD win has been reverse grid. RWD have won every race on speed, whilst FWD win it on reverse grids. Does that sound right? Even the RWD drivers who were struggling, such as Cole and Plato (no offense to either of them) are now consistently up there and even getting race wins, whilst the FWD cars have all faded backwards.

Again, I'm not just whining for the sake of it - I want a Sutton title. But I want to see it done properly. I know Ash is a superstar in the making, but when his car is so good that he's able to drive away from everybody, whilst on full ballast, at multiple circuits, then somebody got the maths wrong somewhere. I want Sutton to win the title, not be gifted it. Either balance them, or open the development up more.

You're quite right about the BoP being judged at the final round, but right now there is a 60 point gap between 1st and 4th. Last year 60 points covered the top 8 by Brands Hatch. So unless there's a huge performance swing, it isn't looking great in that regard.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Again, I'm not just whining for the sake of it - I want a Sutton title. But I want to see it done properly. I know Ash is a superstar in the making, but when his car is so good that he's able to drive away from everybody, whilst on full ballast, at multiple circuits, then somebody got the maths wrong somewhere. I want Sutton to win the title, not be gifted it. Either balance them, or open the development up more.

I'm reaching the conclusion that looking at # of wins will always give a less than full picture.
If you asked people who they thought the cars / drivers who could challenge for the title are, I would guess the list could read Plato, Sutton, Shedden, Neal, Ingram, Jackson, Turkington, Collard and Jordan.
As Jackson has not had a great season, the remaining contenders should see slightly more RWD wins than FWD if balancing was perfect.

I feel we are in agreement that if BoP is being applied, then something has to mix up the results. This would be ballast, and on some cars it seems to have little effect.
Is RWD better at carrying ballast maybe? If so, for me that is where the problem lies.
So how to deal with it? Increase ballast vs base weight %age? That would still impact FWD more.

A thought I have is that maybe the RWD ballast box should be moved forward and upwards to make the effect greater?

[Akrapovic]

(I'm going to stop quoting, as it looks rude when I cut a bit out of your post - I'm not ignoring it!)

Totally agree that number of wins isn't particularly a good way of demonstrating dominance. But I do think the manner of how the races are won is very telling. Like I said, a FWD car hasn't won on speed since pre-Oulton Park. They've only ever won on reverse grids, so that suggests it isn't a great setup they've gotten. If it can't win without being given a free pole position (which was earned by finishing lower), it doesn't look good.

I agree with your list of best drivers too. I'd say all of them should be fighting for the title, with one or two curve balls coming along every year. But then we look at the title race now, and Ingram is 5th almost 100 points back (so a third of the points of Sutton), and Neal, Jackson and Plato are no where. Unless there is a sudden performance swing, the only man who can catch Sutton is Turkington. Shedden isn't going to make up 60 points in 2 meetings.

I think you're spot on with the RWD carrying ballast better. It does fit with the results. What the solution is for that, I honestly have no idea - that'll take someone smarter than me to work out! But I completely agree - if you're going to have BoP and ballast systems, it has to mean something. Right now, it clearly isn't having an effect.

[porsche962fan]

and come to think of it there were some individuals that claimed that there is a PRO Honda bias by TOCA when everything else points to the contrary

hope they don't suffer from the Mandela effect

[Matt K]

Wait, wait. You are talking about RWD being too strong but is it really RWD or Subaru? BMWs are not so dominant, Turks won a few races but he's far from his 2014 dominant performance. Collard has won one race so far while Jordan is typically somewhere between 5-8 place.
That could mean that Subaru has just the best car and my answer is - deal with it. The same as Honda was the best throughout a few past seasons. Moreover, Sutton won 6 races but where is Plato, Cole, Price? Plato with one race win and not so strong and consistent form throughout the whole season. Cole has improved recently but is nothing sort of spectacular apart from his maiden win. Sutton's leading the championship but Plato is barely in the Top 10 while Cole and Price are further back.
And who's talking about Sutton being given the title? Have you seen his driving this year? It is outstanding. Does he have the best car in the field? Probably but so had other champions in their title-winning seasons. Deal with the fact thar somebody has to have the best machinery even in the BoP series. Unless it's 1-2-3-4 for Subaru, there's nothing wrong with it.

If TOCA comes to the conclusion that something is not right then it will probably be changed for 2018. Now I'd suggest watching this season with pleasure instead of crying about RWD vs FWD over and over again.

[Akrapovic]

So when a balanced class is badly balanced and a car is the best, we should just deal with it? We should be happy they messed it up? With...pleasure?

Yeah very good. Exactly the problem we talked about on the previous page. People aren't able to look past the drivers and teams they support because it suits them. Ignore that a FWD car hasn't won a non-reverse grid in months and say it's all fine. I'd consider myself a Sutton fan, but I'm not blind.

[porsche962fan]

it's a loophole in the rules with the boxer engine


BMW can't use a boxer engine, Honda can't and nobody else can't because they don't have one in the road cars so everyone claims that Subaru have the best engineering is a bit clueless as they have an unfair advantage that nobody else can replicate


the only other producer who has boxer engine is PORSCHE and they won't enter BTCC


it's like Mercedes would dominate F1 because they would be able to use something which no other team could use instead of being good enginerring and drivers

[Matt K]

So if everything is bad then stop watching BTCC or talk to Mr Gow. There's no different choice.
And you say that you can't name yourself Sutton's fan just because he's winning in RWD car with boxer engine? Something is not right in my opinion...

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Matt K

So if everything is bad then stop watching BTCC or talk to Mr Gow. There's no different choice.
And you say that you can't name yourself Sutton's fan just because he's winning in RWD car with boxer engine? Something is not right in my opinion...

so if you don't like your toilet paper you stop using it ?

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

so if you don't like your toilet paper you stop using it ?

Yep, I'm changing it and start using different one which I find better

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

it's a loophole in the rules with the boxer engine

OK - so we're no longer claiming it is a RWD vs FWD advantage, and we're now looking at it as an engine advantage?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Matt K

So if everything is bad then stop watching BTCC or talk to Mr Gow. There's no different choice.
And you say that you can't name yourself Sutton's fan just because he's winning in RWD car with boxer engine? Something is not right in my opinion...

Right, well this is a ridiculous stance to take. If something is not good, don't complain about it. Nonsense. Seriously, if a series has problems, as fans we SHOULD complain. This stance of "don't complain, just stop watching" is nonsensical.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

OK - so we're no longer claiming it is a RWD vs FWD advantage, and we're now looking at it as an engine advantage?

I'm not sure if he's right or not, but IMO it doesn't matter what is causing an advantage. Whether it's driven wheels, engine layout, paint colour, or if the driver shaved that morning. If you're running a BoP system, and a ballast system, then the cars should be balanced and the ballast should provide an obvious result. We currently don't have that.

Remember as well, BTCC goes out of its way to produce varied results. Picking balls out of a tub, reversing grids, ballast systems, extending races for safety cars, etc. BTCC has put a lot of work into refining the rules to provide varied results, so when it doesn't work, it means something is quite far off.

[Sodemo]

I bet Alan Gow is regretting that engine boost increase he gave the Subaru's, was it around Snetterton time?

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I bet Alan Gow is regretting that engine boost increase he gave the Subaru's, was it around Snetterton time?

Herein lies the balancing problem, I can understand balancing boost after say 1 or 2 rounds, and I know TOCA have access to far more data than we do, but I can't see how they can balance boost during the season and even inbetween races at the same circuit.

Surely at the BTCC teams level there is little or no engine development during the season, there is no budget or even time to do this, but the teams are continually refining set up and this delivers a laptime improvement.

Even straightline top speed figures don't paint a total picture as top speed gained on the straight can also be down to entry speed from the corner onto the straight, which is handling related.

Performance balancing is seen as some sort of utopia, but in truth you give with one hand and take with the other, this is less visible in GT racing with longer races, pit stops and multi driver line up's that increase the variables, although there were some grumbllings in the GTE class over a perceived performance equaling advantage given to Aston Martin.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

OK - so we're no longer claiming it is a RWD vs FWD advantage, and we're now looking at it as an engine advantage?

it's a general RWD advanatage but with Boxer it gives Subaru an extra advanatage over WSR


have you seen Colin Turkington in race 3 interview ? he looked so perplexed and he is right , in the last races even when Subaru had weight they couldn't really challenge them

and this is Colin Turkington in a WSR BMW one of the top packages in the business


Jack Goff says RWD are "in their own league."

[SteveLevin]

IIRC Subaru was given a weight modification this year that negated much of the engine positioning and center of gravity advantage it represents (i.e., moving the CoG and thus the roll center higher).

As far as some observations on the season... they say a champions year is made less on the good weekends and more on how you manage the bad weekends.This year, Flash (and Matt Neal, to a large extent) have made a truly unexpected and unusual hash of their bad weekends. The reason for that...open for discussion

Steve

[Sodemo]

Are the engines balanced on "top speed achieved" or on engine power produced?

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Are the engines balanced on "top speed achieved" or on engine power produced?

only on engine power.
speed figures are fairly irrelevent as it depends on lots of other factors like aerodynamics, diff settings, gear ratios used, torque, exit speed out of corners etc etc

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

only on engine power.
speed figures are fairly irrelevent as it depends on lots of other factors like aerodynamics, diff settings, gear ratios used, torque, exit speed out of corners etc etc

Ah ok. Which is how it should be really. A teams choice of car shape should not come into how it performs in a straight line.

I'd love to have those BHP figures published.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

only on engine power.
speed figures are fairly irrelevent as it depends on lots of other factors like aerodynamics, diff settings, gear ratios used, torque, exit speed out of corners etc etc

The sporting regulations say that 'The throttle body size and/or restrictor and/or the maximum permitted rpm and/or maximum permitted turbo boost of individual cars may be subject to review and validation after Rounds 9 and 18 of the Championship and/or subsequently at any further time during the Championship by the Administrator, who may implement a variation by way of a Bulletin issued by the Co-ordinator giving a minimum of 24 hours notice.'

It used to be based on lap times, now it is at the discretion of the Adminstrator, who can consider anything he likes in deciding if boost should be adjusted.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I'm not sure if he's right or not, but IMO it doesn't matter what is causing an advantage. Whether it's driven wheels, engine layout, paint colour, or if the driver shaved that morning. If you're running a BoP system, and a ballast system, then the cars should be balanced and the ballast should provide an obvious result. We currently don't have that.

Remember as well, BTCC goes out of its way to produce varied results. Picking balls out of a tub, reversing grids, ballast systems, extending races for safety cars, etc. BTCC has put a lot of work into refining the rules to provide varied results, so when it doesn't work, it means something is quite far off.

I agree that whatever is causing an advantage (if one exists) should be addressed no matter what it is.
But I still feel it needs to be clear what is causing that. If it is RWD advantage, then any measure imposed to negate that would be imposed on Subaru and BMW at the moment.

Therefore, I still think that there should be a single 'tool' used to apply BoP, (the current regulations allow boost and base weight adjustments mid-season), and that application should be made against individual cars - not against car types or brands.

So when Sutton is doing well - he is impacted heavily.
Someone else will do well - they then are impacted.
The title is then decided on who has handled the impact best, which is why I think a bigger ballast to base weight ratio is the way forward.

[Lancsbreaker]

I've been following all this and biting my lip a bit.......but I have to say, whilst I'm all for close racing (providing it doesn't lead to the bumper car mentality sometimes seen) I was always of the opinion that racing was all about who could put together the best package of car (in terms of power / handling / brakes / reliability etc) and driver, and that whoever achieved that won, whilst if you weren't winning, you didn't go running to teacher to get the winner penalised, you got on with upping your game........

Rewatching some of the old Touring car racing in the days of the 3.8 Jags, then challenged by the Cortina-Lotus, in turn by the Galaxy, etc, it struck me that nothing like that would be permitted now. Then again, there isn't a class structure which allows a well-built and well-driven Imp to win the Championship overall, either........