F1's most controvertial moment!

[krt917]

On a driver level, I think the whole Prost-Senna scenario in 1989-1990.

On a political level, I'd go for the FISA Vs FOCA 1980-82 period. Remember, that time even saw the threat of races being cancelled and a couple that WERE held and then lost their champnioship status.

Also controversial have been some of the disqualifications, bans, or 'agreements not to race' of various cars. I'm thinking of the Brabham Fan Car and the Tein-chassis Lotus. Oh, and the way Tyrrell were treated in 1984 was outrageous too!

[f1manoz]

1982 was just an ugly year for the sport. Death, political wrangling, strikes, disqualifications, cancellations...

[deeks6]

Plenty to choose from but the 1980-1982 FISA/FOCA war is historically the most important in terms of the sport. Go back and read the full story - they nearly destroyed F1 and evrybody forgets about it because racing seemed to go on as "normal". I doubt whether Carlos Reutemann thinks so - it cost him the 81 championship.

Others that people have mentioned are tainted with favouritism (lots of anti-Schumi) e.g. I've added some more too.

- Austria 2002 (or any team orders for that matter) - Coulthard pulled over at least twice for Hakkinen and it is forgotten but when it involves Schumacher it is instantly "cheating". Team orders have been in F1 since day 1 and will be forever. Get over it.

- Adelaide 94 ... even if you think MS did it deliberately (which would be hard with broken steering and suspension), remember that he had been disqualified from 2 races costing 16pts and banned from 2 other races for technical reasons so the WDC should not have hinged on that race anyway.

- Jerez 97 ... I have this on tape. There is a view from inside MS car and all he is doing is following his line around the corner. JV had wheels on the grass to get up the inside of him - under todays rules, JV would probably get a drive-through for it.

- Suzuka 1989 ... Prost had right of way, being the car in front. Senna was never the cleanest driver in F1 but his legion of fans forget that. Early in the 89 season (Imola) Senna disobeyed a pre-race agreement and team orders by passing Prost on a restart. Ron Dennis even made him apologise. Senna was push-started at Suzuka which is against the rules.

- Suzuka 1990 ... before the race Senna said 'If he gets to the first corner ahead of me, he'd better not turn in because he's not going to make it.' He then proceeded to simply ram Prost off the track and it amazes me to this day that he got away with it.

- Monaco 1984 ... Jacky Ickx (clerk of course) had his licence withdrawn by FISA because they said he stopped the race prematurely because of his contract with Porsche (Prost had a Porsche engine). This was disgraceful treatment to a man of integrity and, incidentally, was one of the best wet weather drivers of all time so he should know what was dangerous.

- Zandvoort 1973 ... fire marshalls standing around watching Roger Williamson burn to death still makes me angry.

- Niki Lauda simply pulling out at Suzuka 76 and virtually handing the WDC to Hunt was pretty controversial.

- The stupid "fuel economy" runs of the mid 80s leading to cars running out of juice 1-2 laps from the end. Farce!

- For a really old one, Bandini hitting Graham Hill in Mexico 1964 effectively gave his teammate Surtees the title. Hill, to his credit never moaned about it.

- Not entirely sure about Tyrrell affair in 84...there was plenty of circumstantial evidence to say that they were running under the minimum weight in races and I think they were pinged for illegal fuel also. Who knows what the truth was.

[Dick Spanner]

How about the banning of the "twin chassis" Lotus when all the other team owners refused to race against it, not because it was illegal or transgressed any rules but just because they new it instantly made all their car's obsolete.

[Try Hard]

a number of things spring to mind, imola 82 being one of them, with "that" Pironi - Giles incident, which subsequently lead to Gil's death. I think I would agree that that whole period seem to be very controversial. (even though i wasn't alive then...)

If we go technically, what about the fan car, and wings? plently of contorversy in thoose.

I would tend to say that more controversial incidents seem to occur now, just because the way F1 has changed, with sooooo much more riding on the results. Just another sanitisation of the sport(ne business) i guess

[deeks6]

Originally posted by Try Hard
a number of things spring to mind, imola 82 being one of them, with "that" Pironi - Giles incident, which subsequently lead to Gil's death. I think I would agree that that whole period seem to be very controversial. (even though i wasn't alive then...)

I'm sorry, but this one always amazes me. Pironi was hardly the first guy to disobey team orders and GV allegedly hated him for it but how Pironi "drove Villeneuve to his death" by setting a faster time in practice is beyond me. If this was the case, the Jaguar factory could currently double as an undertaker.
Villeneuve failed to see a slowing car (Jochen Mass, I believe) in time and hit its rear wheel while he was on a hot lap.
This conspiracy theory belongs in Area 54 with the Roswell spacecraft.

[climb]

A good one was when Enzo Ferrari threatened to take Ferrari outta F1 and switch to Indy.
The car went available very quickly.

Some difficult nights to sleep for Bernie...

[Try Hard]

I think it's more the background too, If there hadn't of been the FISA/FOCA battle we would have had a complete grid, and this incident would never have occured.... maybe it belongs in the what should have happend thread.

Also what about Mid-Engine cars and the merc streamliners? controvesiol, maybe, maybe not, but defiently sparked wide debate anyway.

[Smokey 6 litre]

Originally posted by deeks6
but when it involves Schumacher it is instantly "cheating". Team orders have been in F1 since day 1 and will be forever. Get over it.

its because it was like a punch in the face to motorsport fans, i accept the fact that team orders are a part of the sport, and i acknowledge that other teams/drivers have done it BUT on the last lap on the pit strait was too much.

[Slayer]

How about this one? I always wondered whether it was a brake failure or perhaps a case of the red mist as Irvine had got the jump on Michael. It came back to me the other night whilst watching the Ferrari documentary when it was mentioned that Ferrari were willing to make up an excuse for Lauda's retirement in the 76' Japanese GP.

[BARrouette]

Jerez 97 Because i use to love M.S. AND NOW...

[Irv the Swerve]

Originally posted by Slayer
How about this one? I always wondered whether it was a brake failure or perhaps a case of the red mist as Irvine had got the jump on Michael. It came back to me the other night whilst watching the Ferrari documentary when it was mentioned that Ferrari were willing to make up an excuse for Lauda's retirement in the 76' Japanese GP.

Interesting one...there is always that little seed of doubt when it comes to Ferrari isn't there?

Anyway, on topic, my most controversial moment is the Fisa/Foca row 1982. Half the grid not racing takes a bit of beating in my opinion.

Most controversial year - 1994.

[Dutch chap]

Zandvoort 1973 ... fire marshalls standing around watching Roger Williamson burn to death still makes me angry.

Deeks6, I fully understand that this situation still makes you angry but don't put the blame on those marshals. Fire marshals you call them. They were not. They were flag marshals and were not trained to use an extinguisher. Even without proper training you'd still be able to use one, maybe not as effective as when you had received training, but still. True, but when there aren't any extinguishers around the place you have a problem. Flag marshals as they were, they were dressed in their own jeans and shirts as was the common thing to do, nothing to protect them apart from a cotton tabard. Not even fireproof gloves they had….

There were 3 marshals on that post. After the accident had happened, one of them was desperately trying to communicate with Race Control on the phones, the second was waving yellow flags to avoid even bigger problems and the third was, although he could hardly expect to do anything about the situation, trying to cross the track towards the place of the incident. And that was a very brave effort, if you consider that at the very same moment a certain Jacky Stewart, the safety apostle, was passing the yellow flag and the wreckage with the dying Williamson trapped in it on his way to smash the lap record. Others were not easing of either I must add.

Did things go wrong that day? Sure! Were there people to blame? Absolutely and I’m not going in that any further now. But please just don’t blame these marshals like so many before you did because they simply don’t deserve this.

[MacMan]

I am only going to mention the ones that I have seen and that is from 84 to 04, wow 20 years off F1!. Late eighties early nineties. 94-95 with Hill and MS plus the 95 Ligier looking exactly like the Bennetton, Jerez 97, Melb 98, Spa 98 DC and MS, 107% rule, Grooved Tyres, Senna Trial,there are probably many more that I have missed.

[deeks6]

Originally posted by Smokey 6 litre
its because it was like a punch in the face to motorsport fans, i accept the fact that team orders are a part of the sport, and i acknowledge that other teams/drivers have done it BUT on the last lap on the pit strait was too much.

No more obvious than Coulthard doing the same thing for Hakkinen at Melbourne (not on the last lap) and Jerez 97...or Phil Hill waving Hawthorn through on the last corner or Villeneuve following Scheckter around or Peterson/Andretti or hundreds of other examples. We (I certainly don't) may not like team orders but they are a fact of F1 and the No 1 drivers are No 1 for a reason.

In a fair race, MS would beat Barrichello 99 times out of 100 and probably ditto for Hakk and DC. At least MS has "gifted" a couple of races back to RB.

[Sir Frank]

It changed F1 forever, and lead to the most exciting time in F1 for all concerned, and lead to many other controversies. The FIA letting Renault run Turbochargers rather than superchargers as per rules.

Costs and manufacturer involvement have escalated on the back of it, and those who didn't get rich got left behind.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by deeks6
I'm sorry, but this one always amazes me. Pironi was hardly the first guy to disobey team orders and GV allegedly hated him for it but how Pironi "drove Villeneuve to his death" by setting a faster time in practice is beyond me. If this was the case, the Jaguar factory could currently double as an undertaker.
Villeneuve failed to see a slowing car (Jochen Mass, I believe) in time and hit its rear wheel while he was on a hot lap.
This conspiracy theory belongs in Area 54 with the Roswell spacecraft.

I don't think anyone thinks it led directly to Villeneuve crashing. It was more about Villeneuve's state of mind (no that I am pretending to know anything about this). It was an indirect consequence of previous events. There is no suggestion that there was a planned conspiracy (agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act) behind it and certainly it was without intent.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Sir Frank
It changed F1 forever, and lead to the most exciting time in F1 for all concerned, and lead to many other controversies. The FIA letting Renault run Turbochargers rather than superchargers as per rules.

Costs and manufacturer involvement have escalated on the back of it, and those who didn't get rich got left behind.

Welcome Sir Frank! I hope you enjoy it here at ten-tenths!

I considered this as an option for this thread. However for what I undestand nobody really objected at the time so it just happened. (maybe because the car wasn't fantastic at first).

It certainly upper the stakes in F1. However I think this would have happened anyway. They couldn't have used DFVs forever! Also I guess the change since the end of the turbo era has seen the haves prosper and the have nots falter. That has come about because of the popularity of the sport growing. I guess, turbos did contribute to this.

[Adam43]

I still go for 1976. Not really for Niki's crash (again not really contriversial), although perhaps the loss of the 'Ring was contriversial at the time (?).

However the regulations that introduced a maximum width and threatened McLaren's car. The British GP and the DSQ of Hunt (along with the jeers). The Italian GP and the impounding and fuel irregularities. The championship table would change as much mid-week depending court cases as it did on Sundays!

[Mr V]

Adam, talking to yourself is the first sign of madness

[Mr V]

Originally posted by deeks6

- Austria 2002 ........but when it involves Schumacher it is instantly "cheating".

- Adelaide 94 ... even if you think MS did it deliberately (which would be hard with broken steering and suspension),


- Jerez 97 ... I have this on tape. There is a view from inside MS car and all he is doing is following his line around the corner. JV had wheels on the grass to get up the inside of him - under todays rules, JV would probably get a drive-through for it.

deeks, we are obviously all entitled to our opinions, but a couple of things,

Austria, it was the way it was done, and the circumstances, it was done under. Rubens had the upper hand all weekend and had to give way (For the second year in succession). When a team has it's own fans boo-ing, something is wrong.

Adelaide, whilst we will never know if it was deliberate or not, fact is, he had broken steering and suspension, and they collided, so it wouldn't have been as hard as you make out.

Jerez, sure, very optimistic move by Villeneuve, but he admitted it, "Deliberate but instinctual", the ironic thing was, if he'd have steered to the left, Villeneuve would have gone off the circuit anyway.

Please don't think for one minute that i am turning this into an anti-Michael bash, i'm not, just putting up reasons for why some believe that these were controversial episodes.

[Hazza]

1994, Apart from the obvious the FIA was doing some very strange things - Hill getting sent to a tribunal after Silverstone because of "stopping on the slow down lap"

And yes, 86 etc was not "Racing" Keke Rosberg had some interesting quotes about the fuel situation. And the other thing was that Honda had a killer advantage that year.

And finaly I laughed at the banner that said "Fangio Didn't Need Team Orders!"
No, but I can tell you alot more who did!

[Gt_R]

Austria:
Fans rather be tricked into believing a result is fair, than know it is not. Strange?

Adelaide:
I had my doubts about it too, but more or less, Michael had to shoulder part of the responsibility. Still, the right man won '94 WDC IMHO

Jerez:
I believe turning left in a right turn would end up in the kitty yah? But true, many overlooked the fact that JV isn't a clean driver at that instance either. Still, like Adelaide, Michael had to shoulder part of the responsibility.

Actually, many of these instances would pale in significance when compared with those extraordinary incidents in the past that defines F1 now. It's just that (1) the more recent happenings (2)the huge media coverage (3) the availabilty of a medium for fans to argue (ie Forum) (4)a proportion of fans who had little knowledge of F1's past incidents, had actually promote "greater controversy"

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Gt_R


Jerez:
I believe turning left in a right turn would end up in the kitty yah?

Should have said, turned away from Villeneuve as opossed to turn left

[deeks6]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
I don't think anyone thinks it led directly to Villeneuve crashing. It was more about Villeneuve's state of mind (no that I am pretending to know anything about this). It was an indirect consequence of previous events.

Adam, I know what you mean but I think legends and myths grow from suggestions and take on greater and more untrue proportion over time and this is one that fans latch on to. I can't see how this incident is any different from rear-ending Peterson or the 7 or 8 other accidents that Gilles had. His driving was always on the edge at best and just plain risky at worst.

Adam, I just get a bit annoyed when some things get distorted over time and are then just accepted as fact (and it happens plenty in F1)...sorry about the whinge, I'll lighten up now.