Senna's Donnington lap....

[Mr V]

....We often hear how it was the best one lap ever etc, just wondering why that is?

Senna started 4th, dropped back to 5th then took Wendlinger, Schumacher, Hill and Prost in one lap. A mighty fine acheivement, but Senna's McLaren had a V8 which should have made things a little easier (less power going down), had traction control (which Senna said that it took away from the brilliance of the lap, i personally don't agree) and was regarded as the rainmaster, witness his drives in Monaco 1984 and Portugal 1985.

So, we have a brilliant lap, that sticks in the memory of every F1 fan that witnessed it that day.

Let me compare it to this....

U.S.A GP of Detroit 1982.

John Watson, qualified 18th, made his way through the field, then in one lap overtook his team-mate, Lauda in the McLaren, Cheever in the Ligier and Pironi in the Ferrari, carried on,and a few laps later, caught and passed Rosberg in the Williams to take the win. (incidental, i know as i'm talking about the 1 lap)

So, whats the difference between these single laps? Why is it that Senna's lap will go down in history, when, (and i have to hold my hands up and say i was one of them), Watsons lap is all but forgotten until someone watches it on video.

Any ideas of why it's different? I can only put it down to the fact that Senna was one of the all time greatest, where as Watson wasn't. Maybe it's easier to remember the performances of the greats?

Thoughts?

[NiceGuyEddie]

Because John Watson simply isn't Ayrton Senna.

Senna's performance confirmed what we all know about Senna. He is the best, and superhuman when it rains. Watson's performance was more incidental (I presume, because I never saw it, yet I do know that Watson was no Senna (or Lauda, or Prost for that matter).

[Mr V]

Do you think then, that if it was Watson who had done that lap at Donnington, as opposed to Senna, it wouldn't have been regarded in the same way?

[Sato san]

Pretty much agree there man ...

At Donnington 1993 i was standing in a puddle of mud at the bottom of the Craner Curves / Old Hairpin and watched in awe as Senna came around the outside of Wendlinger down the hill......It was great stuff !

But saying that , Normally its only the real champions that get remembered for doing special stuff , as its those people that the attention is always on ...

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by Mr V
Do you think then, that if it was Watson who had done that lap at Donnington, as opposed to Senna, it wouldn't have been regarded in the same way?

No I do not. I've added something to my first post. Apologies for the disturbance

But there are number of great performances of drivers who aren't really that great and those don't tend to stick out in Formula 1-history. Like the time Verstappen diced at the head of the field in Austria 2001. Now, I'm not too keen on Verstappen, but it was awesome, wasn't it? Or Sato in Japan 2002. Not only an awesome drive, but an awesome weekend.

Perhaps Watson's drive should've been applauded more, but it's the stuff of truly great drivers that tend to get stuck in our memory.

[gi_gav]

I guess that excellent drives like you mention thrill us as individual races, but the emotional intensity of seeing a true great perform like that is much more significant for most people.

With the really great drivers, people tend to feel a greater emotional attachment, and that's what makes seeing them perform wonders infinitely more memorable than Jos in an Arrows...

[paulzinho]

I was there that day, last time I went to a GP actually and to witness it was an honour.

When you look back at who he passed it makes it even more impressive, Prost and Schumacher (The two drivers with the most GP victories considered by many to be all time greats) and Damon Hill who was a world champion in his own right.

Add to that the fact that he was in a car that shouldnt really have had a chance of winning races that season and you have the ingrediants of a legendary moment.

Also it was the 1st lap of the race and after that he never really looked back did he!

[Craig]

I think it's a combination of the fact it was the first lap of the race, it was for the lead of the race and the calibre of the people (and machines) he was passing.

[Damon]

It really was the stuff of legend. As good as the car was, it was a dog compared to most of the cars he passed. For me 1993 in general was one of Senna's greatest ever seasons. He cemented himself as the all time great he is by running Prost far closer than should have been possible.

[santori]

Wasn't Watson even further back? People do tend to remember based both on what happened and who was doing it, unfortunately.
Though Watson's drive is pretty well remembered. On the other hand, great drives by the greatest drivers sometimes aren't given as much attention as they maybe deserve eg. Ascari in Switzerland; Moss at Pescara aren't as well known as Fangio at the Nurburgring.

[NiceGuyEddie]

What about Nuvolari at the Nurburgring?

[Scrutineer78]

I think Senna is remember for the way he did it. Taking guys on the inside and outside. And he drove by them, he wasn't given an inch, not saying Watson was either.

Of course being Ayrton Senna didn't hurt, as many have said.

However I'd also be inclined to rank Watson's drive up there since it was a street course.

[Comtec Renault]

I was at Donnington that day with Ralph Firman of Van Diemen and he said to me as the cars went past on the warm up lap "I bet you Senna is in the lead by the time they get here" We were in the old Railway carrige that used to be just where the Gp track started ,he new Senna well and he was right,No doubt about it he was and still is the best there was.

[Irv the Swerve]

just a point in relation to those two laps in particular. Watson and Lauda both qualified very poorly and were making up places in the race. Obviously they had some sort of issue, be it tyres or set-up or whatever in qualifying. By the time they made it up to the front it was obvious that Watson was quicker and Lauda let him through. The cars were flying - they both were, both Watson more so. My point is that this was well into the GP, on a tricky street circuit granted, but it was dry.

Senna on the other hand, went out on to a wet circuit without a lot of accurate knowledge of the conditions and took a lot of risks on that opening lap in terrible conditions, especially when dealing with Wendlinger and indeed Schumacher at the very start.

For the simple reason that it was the first lap, I would rank Senna's lap as better.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by santori
Wasn't Watson even further back?

No, he started 18th. There was another race (another US street circuit iirc) where Watson started 22nd(??) and won-with Lauda starting 23rd(??) and coming second.

[santori]

Ah, yes.

[Sato san]

wasnt that Long Beach ?

[Mattracer]

Senna's lap 1 at Donnington was the first chapter in how to drive a race and in the rain.

Complete utter mastery, made everyone else look like a stupid, no talent wannabe.

What really rubbed salt into the wounds was the acknowledged superiority of the Williams cars he passed and the fact that evn his own team couldn't keep up with him in the pitstops yet he still won despite driving thru when they were not ready for his stop.

[krt917]

Mr V, interesting you picked out Watson because I thought of that as an alternative to Senna's much talked-about lap before reading your post!

Both were clearly great laps. The 'problem' comes in how they are regarded by people; Watson doesn't get much credit, whereas Senna's lap gets blown out of proportion. Even the man himself said that it wasn't as great a drive for him as Estoril '85 because he had traction control. It is also known now that Williams (a bit like Monaco '97) were 'at sea' with their set-ups and, if I recall correctly, Schuey was lacking a certain bit of helpful software! I'm not saying Donington '93 wasn't a great lap, just that it is a bit overrated. And that's because of all the mystique that seems to surround the name of Ayrton Senna.

Watson's lap was momentous. Lauda had been hounding a Ligier (Cheever?) and Pironi for laps on end. None able to pass the other. Watson arrived and dived straight passed Lauda, who didn't have time to see him let alone allow him through. He then picked off the Ligier and tucked himself right under the rear wing of Pironi's turbo Ferrari, jinked out under braking and went past to head off after Rosberg and the win.

I don't think that great drives by great drivers should overshadow great drives by very good drivers, though I can understand why such a thing can happen.

I've always thought that what marks a great driver out is their ability to pull out great drives on a regular basis, as Senna could.

[BootsOntheSide]

This defiantely overlaps with the thread KRT has now started about drivers having performances which go above their overall percieved ability.

There are numerous reasons why Senna's drive is more remembered. Watson's NA McLaren was pretty well sutied to circuits such as Detroit, where the turbos were fairly impotent. However, there's little doubt that the Williams was the car to have in 1993 - Senna's achievement of winning 5 races that year (many in the wet) makes it perhaps his greatest season of all, even though Prost took the title.

The individual moves Senna made were completely majestic, especially his double pass on Shcumacher and Wendlinger through the esses. By all logic he would've struggled to stay on the track in the dry, let alone the wet.

As well as not beign a champion, Watson had a percieved air of politeness and comparatively humbleness, whereas Senna's personality and character did endear him to fans.

Also, Senna's drive was 10 years later - an era in which Formula 1's popularity was much higher. Popularity in 1982 will have been affected by Villenueve's death and the off-track FISA/FOCA wrangling. The race was in Europe as well, meaning that it was on at a more sociable time.

[garcon]

To understand the greatness of that Senna lap, you really need to do a lap of Donington in the wet. Trust me, it's scary enough in a 4wd Impreza, let alone an F1 car with 700+bhp to the rear wheels...

[Big-O]

Does any one have a videolink to the Watson lap ???

[Heebeegeetee]

Very interesting thread. The thing with Watson, and Lauda, back in '82, was that the tyres that Mclaren were using were for turbo cars, as Mclaren were the only team using NA engines out of all the teams their supplier was er, supplying. The Mclarens just couldn't generate the heat into their tyres, and thus they spent the entire season virtually, qualifying last. 'Cept at Monaco, where they didn't qualify at all.

Watson and Lauda would thus have to spend their races overtaking everyone, and Watson was the best at it. Indeed he gained the reputation of being the best overtaker in the business. I remember well his completely tucking up of a young Prost.

Senna... well, he did on an undulating circuit, in miserable conditions, on the first lap at the sharp end of the grid. The thing was, and I've posted before on this subject, I too was at the bottom of the Craner Curves, and my overiding memory of that day is that there had been cars going off down the re all morning. I stand to be corrected, but it seemed that anyone who went off line, through overtaking or overcooking it, went off. Touring cars, single seaters whatever. There was a small heap of Formula Vauxhall juniors or whatever they were, on the outside of the old hairpin. They'd go of onto the outside of the track, right at the top of the Craners, but the soaking wet grass saw that they slithered all the way down to the bottom. Due to the number of cars that had gone off and back on to the track, bringing mud, gravel and **** back on to it, off line down the Craner Curves was horrible.

So when we saw Senna seemingly overtaking the whole pack ('cos that's how it looked from where we were standing)on the way down, well, I started to look how much space was around me and where I could run to, 'cos I was sure Senna was going to join us on the banking. It was awesome. And I dare say there were other drivers whose cars had similar attributes, but no-one fought him for the lead.

The next shock for me was waiting for them to come round again. We knew he was in the lead, but I was expecting a three car train to come over the crest. When Senna came over alone, then the two Williams, and we saw what a gap he'd opened then wow, that was special.

Senna wasn't terribly popular in England at that time, I would say, much like Schumacher is/isn't now. I mean, we knew/know he's the best, by far, but sporting ethics etc...
Whatever, everyone knew they had seen magic, and everyone was jumping up and down shouting and cheering as Senna came blasting down the hill.

Could Watson have done the same. You know, given the form he was in back in (was it '82?) he might just have done. But the opportunity never arose. And besides, it is specifically the remit of the very special to pull moves like Senna did that day. When things aren't going well, the cars underpowered and not performing as well as its rivals, then the weather turns horrible, and things are stacking up against you, it is the very special who pull a win out of the bag like that.

[santori]

How about Chris Amon at Clermont-Ferrand, 1972, fighting back after a puncture?

Denis Jenkinson:
"In one lap, Amon disposed of Petersen and Cevert, passing them as if they were not there and on a circuit that is noted for its lack of overtaking places. It was fantastic and almost unbelievable. Not content with that he lopped four seconds a lap off Fittipaldi's lead, but the race was one lap too short for the New Zealander."

He finished third, behind Jackie Stewart and Fittipaldi.

[santori]

Or Rindt's last lap at Monaco '70.